Another Aggy arrested

[streettopeschel]

Duke, are you advocating the need to recruit a certain percentage of low character guys for maximum success?

 

[java]

"The U" looks at their championship trophies and laughs. It was cutting out the thuggery that hurt their performance. Meanwhile, the conference that yet again this year has a hammerlock on the Fulmer Cup is also seen as the best conference by a mile.

It has been a long time since we can say that character won a championship.

Randy, this is the one and only time I will respond to you on this.  A lack of discipline matters, on and off the field.  If you cannot see that, then you don't understand teams.  I am not saying that everyone has to be a choirboy, but I am say there must be discipline.  There is a difference.  

My next point is this, Miami also had Jimmy Johnson, who I consider a great football mind.  I also believe that he was tough and a great leader.  I believe that when he told his guys to run, they would have run through a brick wall.  

Now, you can debate to your heart's content because I am finished.

Hook 'em!

 

[texasdobbs]

Lol ... Duke.... the defender of the aggie faith.... Duke tell that to the 17-18 (I've lost count) kids parents that have been arrested under Sumlin? I know that it's the kids choice to make, but the environment plays a factor in all of this.

 

[Randolph Duke]

There's a big difference between having a few arrests/dealing with character issues and losing critical players. "Character and integrity" may not impact a team to a large degree, but once you lose players that has a significant impact. Andre Ware pretty much said this on College Football Live a few weeks ago. Essentially, Ware said that A&M was rebuilding with the 2014 class because of so much attrition with the 2013 class. People may not see it now but losing players like Claiborne, Golden, and Miles sets teams back a couple years.

And what did Andre Ware have to say about Alabama when they had four players arrested for armed robbery a year ago? What has Andre Were said about any other program that has done well in the Fulmer Cup standings? Texas had 19 returning starters last year and how did that turn out?

The reality is that arrests for public intoxication, possession, underage drinking, disorderly conduct and the like have no impact on how a team performs. I am certainly not one to defend aggy, but like I said, last year Alabama had four players arrested for armed robbery and no one thought Alabama was going to suffer because of those loses. Aggy has certainly had its share of people leave the program as of late, but they continue to replace them with highly regarded recruits and are signing recruits Charlie Strong has tried to recruit and failed to sign. They aren't hurting for talented players.

The key is the ability to develop abilities of the players and the ability for coaches to strategize and scheme. Is aggy fails this year, it won't be because one of his quarterbacks gets blackout drunk during the off season of because some of his players like to relax after practice by taking bong hits. And arrests during the season are much more of a problem than arrests during the off season.

Is Sumlin gets the team to focus during the season, all the offseason issues will be of minor importance. However, it remains a big question whether Sumlin can keep the character issues from being an issue during the season.

 

[texasdobbs]

Truth is truer than fiction. ...

 

[Randolph Duke]

Truth is truer than fiction. ...

And the truth is that off season misdemeanor arrests have almost nothing to do with onfield performance during the season.. In the past three years, aggy has had 19 arrests. UGA has has 24, Mizzou 17 and Bama 12. All are ranked in the preseason top 20. Hardly anyone is predicting the teams with high off season arrests to affect those teams.
Players leaving early for the NFL are much more of an issue as they tend to be talented starters. Players who are character risks are generally going to act up early in their careers and be out of the program before they become key players. The character risks at aggy who left the program were generally young players who, while important to the team, were replaced by players of similar experience.

The loss of Manziel and Evans cost aggy far more than the loss of Golden and Claiborne.

 

[texasdobbs]

And the truth is that off season misdemeanor arrests have almost nothing to do with onfield performance during the season.. In the past three years, aggy has had 19 arrests. UGA has has 24, Mizzou 17 and Bama 12. All are ranked in the preseason top 20. Hardly anyone is predicting the teams with high off season arrests to affect those teams.

Players leaving early for the NFL are much more of an issue as they tend to be talented starters. Players who are character risks are generally going to act up early in their careers and be out of the program before they become key players. The character risks at aggy who left the program were generally young players who, while important to the team, were replaced by players of similar experience.

The loss of Manziel and Evans cost aggy far more than the loss of Golden and Claiborne.

I guess we're all wrong here... Duke has set us straight. .. nothing to see here guys.

Duke says ... Arrests = championships

 

[utisdabomb12]

And what did Andre Ware have to say about Alabama when they had four players arrested for armed robbery a year ago? What has Andre Were said about any other program that has done well in the Fulmer Cup standings? Texas had 19 returning starters last year and how did that turn out?

I have no clue what Ware said about Bama last year. All I know is that A&M doesn't have near the depth that Alabama had, so losing players is much more significant. Not really sure what Texas returning 19 starters has anything to do with my argument either. Who cares if Texas returned 19 starters, doesn't deny that losing players hurts depth especially if they are key players. Your argument is nonresponsive. 

The reality is that arrests for public intoxication, possession, underage drinking, disorderly conduct and the like have no impact on how a team performs. I am certainly not one to defend aggy, but like I said, last year Alabama had four players arrested for armed robbery and no one thought Alabama was going to suffer because of those loses. Aggy has certainly had its share of people leave the program as of late, but they continue to replace them with highly regarded recruits and are signing recruits Charlie Strong has tried to recruit and failed to sign. They aren't hurting for talented players.

Again, comparing Bama and A&M is way off base. A&M doesn't have near the depth that Bama has. Losing players is much more significant for A&M.  I also completely disagree with the argument that smaller arrests have no impact on how a team performs. Of course it's going to have an impact, Hill most likely lost his starting position at QB because of his arrest. If A&M is without a couple players for even a quarter against South Carolina it's going to impact how a team performs. In the long-term it also impacts how a team performs because of recruiting. Malik and Mack have even said they are tired of the arrests. 

The key is the ability to develop abilities of the players and the ability for coaches to strategize and scheme. Is aggy fails this year, it won't be because one of his quarterbacks gets blackout drunk during the off season of because some of his players like to relax after practice by taking bong hits. And arrests during the season are much more of a problem than arrests during the off season.

No it will because they lost three starters in Golden, Claiborne and Miles. If you don't think that will have an impact on their performance not really sure what to say. 

1

 

[utisdabomb12]

And the truth is that off season misdemeanor arrests have almost nothing to do with onfield performance during the season.. In the past three years, aggy has had 19 arrests. UGA has has 24, Mizzou 17 and Bama 12. All are ranked in the preseason top 20. Hardly anyone is predicting the teams with high off season arrests to affect those teams.

I don't care about the severity of the arrest in terms of its impact. I care about which players A&M loses. Losing Miles, Claiborne and Golden will have a significant impact on A&M not only next year but for a couple years. 

Players leaving early for the NFL are much more of an issue as they tend to be talented starters. Players who are character risks are generally going to act up early in their careers and be out of the program before they become key players. The character risks at aggy who left the program were generally young players who, while important to the team, were replaced by players of similar experience.The loss of Manziel and Evans cost aggy far more than the loss of Golden and Claiborne.

Yes, losing Manziel/Evans cost Aggy more. Still doesn't deny losing Golden, Claiborne and Miles is huge. Even Aggys will tell you that losing Claiborne and Golden were critical losses. 

 

[Randolph Duke]

I guess we're all wrong here... Duke has set us straight. .. nothing to see here guys.

Duke says ... Arrests = championships

What are you, 18 years old and incapable of understanding a discussion or of responding without a straw man?
What makes you say I have said anything close to arrests=championships? Do you really not understand what I wrote?

Off season misdemeanor arrests simply have no demonstrated effect on the outcome of a team's season if the team has recruited well. The UT players who supposedly took meals from an agent will serve more of a suspension than most aggys who were arrested during the off season. Taking prohibited benefits from an agent is arguably as much of a discipline issue as disorderly conduct or underage drinking.

If players get arrested during the season, it can disrupt the game prep of the coaching staff. Offseason issues are far less disruptive than issues during the season.

Players who have character issues such as taking impermissible benefits as well as players who smoke weed or drink do not necessarily create impediments to teams winning championships. Teams comprised of altar boys enjoy no advantage over more talented and better coached teams made up of thugs. It is that simple. As long as the players keep their indiscretions under control during the season, it comes down to who the better athletes and better coaches are.

A poor strength and conditioning program is far more of a determinant of a team's performance it's off season record. Poor s&c can result in lost playing time during the season when it is more difficult for a coach to deal with. A misdemeanor arrest during the off season doesn't cause many issues for a coach during the season. A lot of guys who get arrested aren't necessarily character risks. They are quite often just young and stupid.

We might want to think aggy will fall apart and the off season arrest record is an indicator of their program going off the rails. Sumlin's ability to coach up talented players is much more of factor than his neglect of off season discpline issues.

 

[utisdabomb12]

What are you, 18 years old and incapable of understanding a discussion or of responding without a straw man?

What makes you say I have said anything close to arrests=championships? Do you really not understand what I wrote?

Off season misdemeanor arrests simply have no demonstrated effect on the outcome of a team's season if the team has recruited well. The UT players who supposedly took meals from an agent will serve more of a suspension than most aggys who were arrested during the off season. Taking prohibited benefits from an agent is arguably as much of a discipline issue as disorderly conduct or underage drinking.

If players get arrested during the season, it can disrupt the game prep of the coaching staff. Offseason issues are far less disruptive than issues during the season.

Players who have character issues such as taking impermissible benefits as well as players who smoke weed or drink do not necessarily create impediments to teams winning championships. Teams comprised of altar boys enjoy no advantage over more talented and better coached teams made up of thugs. It is that simple. As long as the players keep their indiscretions under control during the season, it comes down to who the better athletes and better coaches are.

What I don't understand is why you keep referring to just "misdemeanor arrests". Who cares about the severity of the infraction? We care about what players A&M has lost to off the field issues (Claiborne, Miles and Golden). I'm starting to feel like you are just a troll. 

I give two craps about whether smoking weed or other character issues impact a team's performance. Bottom line....A&M lost three critical pieces in Golden, Claiborne and Miles. That will have an impact on A&M's performance, you can't spin that. 

 

[Randolph Duke]

What I don't understand is why you keep referring to just "misdemeanor arrests". Who cares about the severity of the infraction? We care about what players A&M has lost to off the field issues (Claiborne, Miles and Golden). I'm starting to feel like you are just a troll.

I give two craps about whether smoking weed or other character issues impact a team's performance. Bottom line....A&M lost three critical pieces in Golden, Claiborne and Miles. That will have an impact on A&M's performance, you can't spin that.

The players aggy lost can be replaced if Sumlin can coach up some other players. None of the three you mentioned were irreplaceable. If Sumlin can't coach up a player and adjust his scheme with five months time, the reason the team will fail to perform isn't because of the players, it is because of the coaching. A good coach can deal with three injuries during the season. He should be able to deal with three players unavailable with six months notice.
As for "misdemeanor arrests" of course the infraction matters. If a kid went to BYU, he could be kicked off the team as a character risk for having premarital sex. If a kid smokes half a joint in Colorado is is an athlete on vacation, but if he smokes the other half in Austin he is a thug!? A bunch of 60 year old white men in the state house make the drinking age 18 and a kid with beer is an athlete having a beer, but if those same old men decide they want the drinking age to be 21 and the same kid doing the same thing is a thug?! A kid drinks himself silly in his dorm room and passes out and he is a college kid having fun, but if he does it in a bar and passes out in a planter box and he is a thug?! Really?!

Just because a college student gets arrested, that doesn't make him a thug. Just because an athlete has dinner with an agent that doesn't make him a thug. Some times people grow from their mistakes. Sometimes people learn lessons in life. Not everyone shows up at college as a perfect adult. Obviously, you were the exception. I certainly was not. Some people look at college as a period of growth and learning.

The issues at aggy reflect poor leadership more than anything. Guys like Claiborne and Golden were unquestionably partying hard before they were arrested and either there were failed drug tests that were ignored or there weren't tests administered. The issues at aggy are deeper than the players. When the adults are are responsible for the problems, don't blame the problems on the kids and label them as thugs. Kids with problems and issues can be great athletes. If they have the right leadership they can win championships. The question of whether aggy will do well or fall apart is how well Sumlin can coach and co from the team during the season, not whether the athletes are dumb, misguided individuals. Hell if they weren't dumb, misguided individuals they wouldn't have signed to play for aggy in the first place.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

So you're saying Aggy just has a shitload of players learning the lesson of life and that most other schools don't have as many players learning such lessons?

That was about as good of a stab at saying all players are the same as I've ever seen. Bravo. I just don't agree with it. But it was a nice try.

If players are just plug and play, then why bother rating any of them? Why bother watching their film or even knowing their names? Just sign a class and plug and play.

Or is there really a reason why someone like Golden was so heavily recruited? Some things found in one player simply can't be found in another or have yet to be found in another. I don't begrudge a Sumlin for failing to replicate five star talent with a three star second option. If it were that simple, we'd stack our classes with three star types and call it a day. Lord knows we pay our coaches enough to do that, if the expectation is rational.

 

[utisdabomb12]

The players aggy lost can be replaced if Sumlin can coach up some other players. None of the three you mentioned were irreplaceable. If Sumlin can't coach up a player and adjust his scheme with five months time, the reason the team will fail to perform isn't because of the players, it is because of the coaching. A good coach can deal with three injuries during the season. He should be able to deal with three players unavailable with six months notice.

This is true with any coach so not sure what your point is. I'm not sure why you keep acting like losing Golden, Claiborne and Miles isn't a big deal. Claiborne was arguably their best player and Miles/Golden were probably going to be starters (Godlen for sure).

As for "misdemeanor arrests" of course the infraction matters. If a kid went to BYU, he could be kicked off the team as a character risk for having premarital sex. If a kid smokes half a joint in Colorado is is an athlete on vacation, but if he smokes the other half in Austin he is a thug!? A bunch of 60 year old white men in the state house make the drinking age 18 and a kid with beer is an athlete having a beer, but if those same old men decide they want the drinking age to be 21 and the same kid doing the same thing is a thug?! A kid drinks himself silly in his dorm room and passes out and he is a college kid having fun, but if he does it in a bar and passes out in a planter box and he is a thug?! Really?!

Have no clue what your point is? My argument has nothing to do with the severity of the infraction it has to do with the players lost by A&M. That's the point, character issues might not impact a team's performance but losing three starters sure as hell does. 

Just because a college student gets arrested, that doesn't make him a thug. Just because an athlete has dinner with an agent that doesn't make him a thug. Some times people grow from their mistakes. Sometimes people learn lessons in life. Not everyone shows up at college as a perfect adult. Obviously, you were the exception. I certainly was not. Some people look at college as a period of growth and learning.

When have I ever called any of the players "thugs"?

The issues at aggy reflect poor leadership more than anything. Guys like Claiborne and Golden were unquestionably partying hard before they were arrested and either there were failed drug tests that were ignored or there weren't tests administered. The issues at aggy are deeper than the players. When the adults are are responsible for the problems, don't blame the problems on the kids and label them as thugs. Kids with problems and issues can be great athletes. If they have the right leadership they can win championships. The question of whether aggy will do well or fall apart is how well Sumlin can coach and co from the team during the season, not whether the athletes are dumb, misguided individuals. Hell if they weren't dumb, misguided individuals they wouldn't have signed to play for aggy in the first place.

So many words, but you say so little. All I'm saying is that losing 3 starters will impact a team's performance. That's the bottom line. 

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Duke, are you advocating the need to recruit a certain percentage of low character guys for maximum success?

Not to speak for Duke, but I don't think so. I think he is simply noting a correlation between a certain roughness of character in the roster and on-field success. If you look back at our '05 group we had a few bad apples mixed in with the really good kids too. I hope I don't need to list names from the roster or anything like that to back up my point.

With that point out of the way, let's go back and assess the correlation Duke brings up. I believe it is very easy to cherry-pick your data points no matter what side of this argument you choose to defend, and so it makes for pretty damned good bulletin board fodder because no definitive answers are possible. I would point out that a correlation does not ever prove a cause and effect relationship, so I think that weakens Duke's argument considerably, and I personally do believe it is very possible to win big with, as Mack liked to say, "good kids who graduate".

 

[utisdabomb12]

So you're saying Aggy just has a shitload of players learning the lesson of life and that most other schools don't have as many players learning such lessons?

That was about as good of a stab at saying all players are the same as I've ever seen. Bravo. I just don't agree with it. But it was a nice try.

If players are just plug and play, then why bother rating any of them? Why bother watching their film or even knowing their names? Just sign a class and plug and play.

Or is there really a reason why someone like Golden was so heavily recruited? Some things found in one player simply can't be found in another or have yet to be found in another. I don't begrudge a Sumlin for failing to replicate five star talent with a three star second option. If it were that simple, we'd stack our classes with three star types and call it a day. Lord knows we pay our coaches enough to do that, if the expectation is rational.

It's like he thinks losing Golden, Miles and Claiborne is not a big deal. I'm so confused. 

 

[utisdabomb12]

I'm going to breakdown why losing Golden, Miles and Claiborne is so critical. 

(Golden)-They literally have no experience now in the middle at NT and DT. Their most experienced player in the middle is Jay Arnold who had 13 tackles on the season last year. It means that true freshman, in Zaycoven Henderson, is most likely going to have to play NT. Good luck winning with a true freshman in the middle of the defense. Losing Golden was huge. A&M will most likely be relying on a Sophomore with little experience and a true Freshman with no experience in the middle of the defensive line. Golden was really the only player on A&M's roster that had at experience at the position. 

(Claiborne)-He was A&M's best defensive player last year. A&M fans will even tell you that their LB core is a complete mess. Losing Claiborne was huge too because he was their only true mike linebacker. Another position up the middle where A&M has serious issues. Claiborne was the only bright spot for A&M's defense last year and he's gone. 

(Miles)-Safety is probably A&M's worst position. They will most likely have to move a CB in the safety position, because it's that bad. They needed someone, I mean anybody to step up at safety. Miles looked like a candidate to do that. 

Losing Miles, Claiborne and Golden was huge. There's no way around it. 

 

[texasdobbs]

Duke my reading comprehension is great... but let me quote a previous statement from you:

"I think that aggys recruitment of character risks will enhance aggy's chance of winning a championship, not hinder it."

????

 

[texasdobbs]

Duke... This was in response to this statement that you made.... What makes you say I have said anything close to arrests=championships? Do you really not understand what I wrote?

 

[PropositionJoe]

claiborne was playing out of position at mike. he probably would have been moved outside (more of a natural position) and mastrogiovanni would have been moved to starter at MLB.

if i had to rank the losses i'd say 1) golden 2) kam 3) claiborne .