Big 12 Expansion Project

[J.B. TexasEx]

Central Florida's odds concern me.

Why? You don't think they're worthy?

Word is, FOX is wanting Eastern inventory and FL in particular. UCF is the largest public university in FL. We can do worse, IMO.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

Why? You don't think they're worthy?

Word is, FOX is wanting Eastern inventory and FL in particular. UCF is the largest public university in FL. We can do worse, IMO.

IMO, if Central Florida gets in, we're talking about four teams.

IMO, Houston is in. Texas has that kind of clout. I also think Cincy is in. And BYU would be third choice. I suspect we'll see BYU come on as football only.

So if CFU is a serious consideration, I think that means BYU is in.

You'd get one team with absolutely no travel issues being in the heart of the conference. Cincy is your gift to WVU. CFU gets you into Florida. And BYU gets you a high quality football program.

I'm probably all wrong though. lol

 

[Sirhornsalot]

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/09/even-big-12-expand-14-teams-byus-lgbt-views-keep-source-serious-issue

In the past 36 hours or so, Big 12 expansion has turned into a public debate on social issues.
Forget TV network preferences, or markets or academics or alumni bases or athletic programs or anything else that might be on the table when Big 12 presidents finally get around to a decision. The current front-burner issue involves BYU's honor code and the LGBT community.

As it applies to BYU's hopes of joining the Big 12, it's now a significant factor, multiple industry and Big 12 school sources confirmed Tuesday. Suddenly, BYU's strong football tradition, national following and 63,000-capacity stadium may not be enough to secure Big 12 membership.
"It is a serious issue," said an industry source familiar with the Big 12 discussions. "Whether it keeps them out or not, it is a serious issue."
The top three Big 12 expansion candidates have been viewed as Cincinnati, Houston and BYU, sources said. If the Big 12 only expands by two to 12, BYU could be out.
"Three schools for two possible spots," said the source. "This doesn't help."
If the league goes to 14 -- right now about a 51-49 proposition according to one source -- BYU still might not be guaranteed a spot with schools like Memphis, Central Florida, UConn and Colorado State among those in contention.
Beyond the thorny debate about personal freedom vs. religious liberty, the political implications are impossible ignore. As a recent reminder, there's the NBA's decision to move the NBA All-Star game from Charlotte because of anti-discrimination concerns involving a state bill on bathroom access. And the NCAA announced it is surveying potential future site hosts on discrimination issues.
The issue has been simmering in the background pretty much since the Big 12 began serious expansion exploration July 19. It came to the forefront with a letter by Athlete Ally, the National Center for Lesbian Rights and more than 20 LGBT rights organizations sent a letter to Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby opposing BYU's addition.
"Given BYU's homophobic, biphobic and transphobic policies and practices, BYU should not be rewarded with Big 12 membership," the letter read in part.
Bowlsby responded Tuesday, a conference spokesman confirmed.
BYU athletic director Tom Holmoe tweeted Tuesday: "

While same-sex attraction is not a violation of BYU's Honor Code, but any physical contact is -- a difference from the code regarding heterosexual contact.
News accounts have put faces with the concern. Fox Sports, which broke the story Monday evening, quoted openly gay former Oklahoma pole vaulter Tanner Williams as saying he wouldn't travel to compete at BYU. USA Today cited former another gay athletic, former TCU football player Vince Pryor, expressing the same sentiment.
Any decision on expansion will have to be made by the 10 Big 12 presidents and -- as several sources noted -- LGBT concerns are among hot-button campus issues.

BYU has other issues that might give the Big 12 pause. The school announced this week it is being investigated by the Department of Education for its handling of sexual assault reports.
After the very public issues at Baylor, Big 12 presidents may be unlikely to embrace another private school with strong church ties and potential Title IX issues.
BYU has also drawn scrutiny with allegations its Honor Code discourages students from reporting sexual assaults. Similar suggestions have been made about the situation at Baylor, according to an Associated Press report.
Any Big 12 expansion candidate needs eight votes to be added. Sources indicated that the Big 12 will probably seriously talk with six to eight candidates before decision on whether to add two or four members. Discussions with TV partners ESPN and Fox -- which are believed to have favored the addition of BYU -- are part of the equation, as well.
Several sources indicated strong skepticism about any announcement before the start of the season in September. The Big 12 has a regularly scheduled meeting of its board of directors in late October.
BYU addresses "homosexual behavior" as part of its Honor Code. Here is how it reads:
"Brigham Young University will respond to homosexual behavior rather than to feelings or attraction and welcomes as full members of the university community all whose behavior meets university standards. Members of the university community can remain in good Honor Code standing if they conduct their lives in a manner consistent with gospel principles and the Honor Code.
"One's stated same-gender attraction is not an Honor Code issue. However, the Honor Code requires all members of the university community to manifest a strict commitment to the law of chastity. Homosexual behavior is inappropriate and violates the Honor Code. Homosexual behavior includes not only sexual relations between members of the same sex, but all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings."

 

[Sirhornsalot]

 

[Sirhornsalot]

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/07/cowlishaw-one-problem-big-12-opening-expansion-just-two-teams-instead-four

Columnist Tim Cowlishaw recently held a chat to talk all things D-FW sports. Here are some highlights:

Question: Are you for Big 12 expansion and if so, which teams would you like to see added to the conference?

Cowlishaw: I was in favor of four teams but I don't think that will happen. I think they will hold it to two. I would say Houston and Cincinnati if that's the case. Problem with only going to 12 like that is you would have five teams in Texas. How do you break up the divisions? You can't split OU and OSU. So maybe they go in the other division with Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State and Cincinnati, and you put West Virginia in with the Texas teams? That doesn't work too well, either. Let's just say it's complicated.

Question: If the not having a travel partner for West Virginia is an issue, then why would the Big 12 add two teams and have one of them be BYU?
 

Cowlishaw: I'm not sure they will add BYU. There are some obvious pluses with BYU -- big fan base, solid history in football -- and some minuses regarding geography, their school's controversial honor code, can't play on Sundays (that's a small one in football but significant in other sports). So I don't think BYU is a slam dunk.

Question: Houston, future Big 12 member, checks in at No. 13 in Amway Coaches Poll that was just released. You giving the Coogs a shot at beating OU in Week 1??
Cowlishaw: Definitely. Week One, you see some upsets and I'm not even sure how much of an upset this would be. But Sooners have Mayfield and those running backs so it's going to be difficult but by no means impossible. Is OU's defense ready to handle everything that UH attack brings? Will be interesting game.

 

[primal defense]

The great negotiation: Will the Big 12 choose Houston and long-term stability or stick with short-sighted thinking?

http://www.campusrush.com/big-12-expansion-houston-cougars-football-1965479371.html

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

"Given BYU's homophobic, biphobic and transphobic policies and practices, BYU should not be rewarded with Big 12 membership"

*groan*

Why don't LGBT people apply to Utah and other secular institutions that are more open to their lifestyles? BYU's honor code is public record and it ain't like they keep their religious views a secret. It'd be a shame if this costs BYU a Big12 invite, but our university presidents are worried about any and all negative PR. 

IMO, this issue is secondary to FOX wanting more EST game inventory. It will make for a convenient excuse to leave them out, though.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Cowlishaw: I was in favor of four teams but I don't think that will happen. I think they will hold it to two. I would say Houston and Cincinnati if that's the case. Problem with only going to 12 like that is you would have five teams in Texas. How do you break up the divisions? You can't split OU and OSU. So maybe they go in the other division with Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State and Cincinnati, and you put West Virginia in with the Texas teams? That doesn't work too well, either. Let's just say it's complicated.

Damn, Colishaw is right. Divisions won't be easy!

I don't know how to equitably split these divisions without overloading one with four TX teams. Does a game in talent-rich OH appease everybody? My proposal below will include one protected cross-division "rival" (UT vs OU). Not sure BU will want to play UH every year, but it makes sense geographically. TCU also draws a short straw with Cincinnati, but travel will be easy between 2 hubs.

West: UT, Tech, KSU, KU, TCU, BU 

East: OU, OSU, ISU, WVU, UC, UH

Hell, I'll just be happy to have 12 teams again, 8-game league schedule, and return of the Big 12 Championship. We'll be "numerically correct" again, too. Hooray...

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Are the Big 12 powers playing poker with ESPN & Fox?

 

[Embrey]

*groan*

Why don't LGBT people apply to Utah and other secular institutions that are more open to their lifestyles? BYU's honor code is public record and it ain't like they keep their religious views a secret. It'd be a shame if this costs BYU a Big12 invite, but our university presidents are worried about any and all negative PR.

IMO, this issue is secondary to FOX wanting more EST game inventory. It will make for a convenient excuse to leave them out, though.

So strange. These self-proclaimed tolerant types are so intolerant to those they consider intolerant. But, nobody seems to notice the hypocrisy. Because if you did notice it, and then you kept on not tolerating the intolerant, you would be the problem.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

BYU: Something to Prove in Provo

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

— Twitter API (@twitterapi) November 7, 2011

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

— Twitter API (@twitterapi) November 7, 2011

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

UCF: Centered On Growth

 

[longhorn_mig]

Why? You don't think they're worthy?

Word is, FOX is wanting Eastern inventory and FL in particular. UCF is the largest public university in FL. We can do worse, IMO.

Agreed, we could definitely do a lot worse. I guess it's mainly the quality of their programs. I know it wasn't that long ago they were beating Baylor in the Fiesta Bowl, but I worry about the quality of competition. LOL, also, the link you just posted doesn't help.

Honestly, I'd still rather add no teams at this time. I understand the money grab, but there aren't quality teams out there.

 

[doc longhorn]

IMO, if Central Florida gets in, we're talking about four teams.

IMO, Houston is in. Texas has that kind of clout. I also think Cincy is in. And BYU would be third choice. I suspect we'll see BYU come on as football only.

So if CFU is a serious consideration, I think that means BYU is in.

You'd get one team with absolutely no travel issues being in the heart of the conference. Cincy is your gift to WVU. CFU gets you into Florida. And BYU gets you a high quality football program.

I'm probably all wrong though. lol

I think you are right, on one of your guesses, more than you know.

 

[doc longhorn]

Agreed, we could definitely do a lot worse. I guess it's mainly the quality of their programs. I know it wasn't that long ago they were beating Baylor in the Fiesta Bowl, but I worry about the quality of competition. LOL, also, the link you just posted doesn't help.

Honestly, I'd still rather add no teams at this time. I understand the money grab, but there aren't quality teams out there.

I disagree.  Not that I think expansion will add quality teams, but I'm convinced the Big 12 will disintegrate after the GOR expires anyway.  So, what the hell?  Bring 'em all on.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Agreed, we could definitely do a lot worse. I guess it's mainly the quality of their programs. I know it wasn't that long ago they were beating Baylor in the Fiesta Bowl, but I worry about the quality of competition. LOL, also, the link you just posted doesn't help.

Honestly, I'd still rather add no teams at this time. I understand the money grab, but there aren't quality teams out there.

No argument

That's true for most of these candidates. It'd be smarter just to schedule them OOC. BYU is the only one with legitimate P5 metrics, but they're in the wrong direction and have other negatives. 

The money grab plus no longer playing a round robin schedule are the only reason to add anyone right now. The Big12 probably won't expand if we can squeeze ESPN/FOX for more $$$.

 

[BudreauReye]

Wescott Eberts over at Burnt Orange Nation had this to say about BYU.  I agree that this issue should eliminate BYU from consideration as a member of the Big 12.  Personally, I would like to have Baylor shown the exit as well. 

http://www.burntorangenation.com/2016/8/10/12426750/byu-cougars-big-12-expansion-lgbt-discrimination-honor-code-sexual-assault

BYU’s discriminatory Honor Code should keep Cougars out of the Big 12

By Wescott Eberts   on Aug 10, 2016, 2:43p

The conference can’t afford to add an expansion school that already unapologetically violates Big 12 bylaws.

With the Baylor Bears still immersed in the ongoing scandal in Waco, the Big 12 Conference has an important decision to make about the school that was commonly considered the frontrunner to join the league if it decides to expand by two or four institutions — the BYU Cougars.

From several standpoints, including athletics (especially football), market size, and overall fan base, BYU is extremely appealing to a conference that doesn’t have many strong options and includes several schools with less appealing profiles than the Cougars.

 

However, in light of the scandal at Baylor that at least partly stems from the school’s student conduct code, similar issues in Provo are seriously impacting BYU’s candidacy.

On Monday, 25 groups representing LGBT issues asked the Big 12 not to admit BYU, one of which claimed that the school’s honor code "provides no protections for LGBT students ... Given BYU's homophobic, biphobic and transphobic policies and practices, BYU should not be rewarded with Big 12 membership.â€

The school’s athletic director responded:

​

"LGBT players, coaches and fans are always welcome to the BYU campus. Everyone should be treated with respect, dignity and love. Tom"

​

 

​

— Tom Holmoe (@TomHolmoe)
https://twitter.com/TomHolmoe/status/763070953681145857August 9, 2016
https://twitter.com/TomHolmoe/status/763070953681145857

​

 

However, since “homosexual behavior†is expressly outlawed by the school, several openly gay former Big 12 athletes have said they would decline to participate in athletic competition against BYU, feelings that stand in sharp contrast to the supposed inclusiveness for which Holmoe is supposedly advocating.

"It is a serious issue," an industry source familiar with Big 12 expansion told the Dallas Morning News. "Whether it keeps them out or not, it is a serious issue."

 

In fact, the Big 12 has a bylaw that expressly forbids the discrimination enacted at BYU by the Honor Code:

“It is the obligation of each Member Institution to refrain from discrimination prohibited by federal and state law, and to demonstrate a commitment to fair and equitable treatment of all student-athletes and athletics department personnel,†reads a section from the Big 12 Handbook.

The potential issue for the conference isn’t necessarily just BYU’s affiliation with the Mormon church, it’s fact that the Mormon church plays such a large role in institutionalizing policies that discriminate against LGBT students and victims of sexual assault, which makes the issues all the more difficult to fix because they run more deeply than merely with the school itself.

Check out his awful story of a student who alleged that she had been raped at BYU, but was then suspended from the school for drug use and a prior sexual encounter with that student. All because she violated the school’s Honor Code.

If that treatment of alleged sexual assault victims sounds similar to what has been happening at Baylor, that’s because it is.

Earlier this week, the potential Title IX issues stemming from the Honor Code and BYU’s enforcement of it prompted the Office of Civil Rights to launch an investigation that could result in the removal of federal financial aid and other funding.

Just like at Baylor, some people around the program just don’t get it. Like this Salt Lake City Tribune columnist, for instance:



"Hell, student-athletes can't even wear a beard at BYU. Are beard-wearers discriminated against, then? Can a school have any kind of behavioral code, anymore, without claims being brought against it?"


 
The answer is that, yes, in fact, beard-wearers are being discriminated against and while that type of discrimination may seem benign, it’s not, because it’s only one small example of larger and much more dangerous discrimination happening at BYU.

So the larger answer is that, yes, a school can have whatever type of behavioral code it wants, as long as it doesn’t discriminate against students, especially students in communities that already suffer from an incredible amount of discrimination from other elements of society.

And if the behavioral code serves as a reporting barrier for sexual assaults, then it is not acceptable and needs to change to follow federal guidelines. That’s not an opinion, that’s the law.

Is that really so hard to understand?

Because of the systemic cultural issues that result in such egregious discrimination and neglect in Provo, the Big 12 should avoid the potential for future scandals and decline to invite BYU into the league until such a point at which the school can reform the Honor Code to be inclusive of LGBT students and properly follow Title IX guidelines in dealing with victims of sexual assault.

An amnesty clause for students who have been sexually assaulted while under the influence of drugs or alcohol or after having engaged in consensual sex with the person who assaulted them is the necessary first step.

The next step would be to stop the institutionalized discrimination against LBGT students.

Expansion may be an absolute money grab for the conference, but that doesn’t mean that the Big 12 can afford to set aside the values espoused in its handbook and accept an institution with blatantly discriminatory policies.

Some things matter more than sports.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

In fact, the Big 12 has a bylaw that expressly forbids the discrimination enacted at BYU by the Honor Code:

“It is the obligation of each Member Institution to refrain from discrimination prohibited by federal and state law, and to demonstrate a commitment to fair and equitable treatment of all student-athletes and athletics department personnel,†reads a section from the Big 12 Handbook.

Very interesting

Looks like we can stick a fork in BYU and - in turn - CSU. The Big12 and its administrations will cave to these fascist, intolerant "progressives" aren't going to want this negative publicity. That's too bad.

— Twitter API (@twitterapi) November 7, 2011