Big 12 vs. SEC thread

[RgrLee]

A conference needs to make some sort of geographic sense, otherwise you make it difficult for the fan base and add expense to sports programs already financially struggling.

I disagree with the idea Baylor, TCU, OSU, etc are dogs when we look at the big picture and even more so when we consider the sports programs of the SEC and compare. The BigXII produces solid track and field, softball, baseball and many suits on TV have spoken to how deep the overall conference is in basketball this year.

Then consider recruiting.....

As a dad of a daughter who has a real chance to play tier1 / D1 softball, it matters to me if I can see my daughter play. If she signs with (as an example) UVA, I'll hardly ever get to see her play. As a parent, that hurts because I've put in the time and watched her grow and want to share in these next moments with her. I don't think I'm different from a football dad, basketball dad, etc.

Therefore if and when you realign conferences, who you bring in matters relative to the likelihood of drawing TV coverage and recruiting from that same region and thus demographic that school caters to.

Lets use a school as an example and see how it plays out :

Let's say the Big XII went after 2 schools to "make the conference better". For this example I'll pick up South Florida in Tampa and ULL.

#1. Does the expense of traveling to Tampa become a wash relative to the marketing dollars and TV revenue?

#2. Does this make it easier to recruit kids in Florida 

#3. Is there a vacuum left by Miami sucking for so long, that can be filled by the Bulls?

#4. Do the Bulls increase the quality of play from sports A-Z?

#5. And since there is revenue parity in the Big XII, will a smaller, lower name school be happy with "whatever we give them" as apposed to equal share?

Louisville would have been nice for a few different reasons however they don't answer some of the questions I raised. Already having WV, having Louisville doesn't increase TV revenue and doesn't broaden the base relative to recruiting nor marketing.

What would help is nabbing a smaller, up and coming school in an area you would like the Big XII have more exposure (in every way).

Now BYU is interesting like Notre Dame is interesting because they have followers all over the country and have their own, built in TV deals.......but I just can't get too excited about BYU and I'm sure TCU, WV and ISU aren't too keen on that travel for every little sports program.

I'm not arguing a point rather I'm trying to expand the way folks look at this because it IS business and not just "the best football match up".

 

[hookemhorb]

I really don't see realignment coming again soon or the Big 12 picking up a couple of schools. What I think we'll see is the first super conference with the Big 12 merging with another conference. My guess is the ACC. 10 teams in each division. Winner of each division plays in the conference championship. This is how we'll get an 8 team play-off.

It may be football only.

 

[doc longhorn]

A conference needs to make some sort of geographic sense, otherwise you make it difficult for the fan base and add expense to sports programs already financially struggling.

I disagree with the idea Baylor, TCU, OSU, etc are dogs when we look at the big picture and even more so when we consider the sports programs of the SEC and compare. The BigXII produces solid track and field, softball, baseball and many suits on TV have spoken to how deep the overall conference is in basketball this year.

Then consider recruiting.....

As a dad of a daughter who has a real chance to play tier1 / D1 softball, it matters to me if I can see my daughter play. If she signs with (as an example) UVA, I'll hardly ever get to see her play. As a parent, that hurts because I've put in the time and watched her grow and want to share in these next moments with her. I don't think I'm different from a football dad, basketball dad, etc.

Therefore if and when you realign conferences, who you bring in matters relative to the likelihood of drawing TV coverage and recruiting from that same region and thus demographic that school caters to.

Lets use a school as an example and see how it plays out :

Let's say the Big XII went after 2 schools to "make the conference better". For this example I'll pick up South Florida in Tampa and ULL.

#1. Does the expense of traveling to Tampa become a wash relative to the marketing dollars and TV revenue?

#2. Does this make it easier to recruit kids in Florida 

#3. Is there a vacuum left by Miami sucking for so long, that can be filled by the Bulls?

#4. Do the Bulls increase the quality of play from sports A-Z?

#5. And since there is revenue parity in the Big XII, will a smaller, lower name school be happy with "whatever we give them" as apposed to equal share?

Louisville would have been nice for a few different reasons however they don't answer some of the questions I raised. Already having WV, having Louisville doesn't increase TV revenue and doesn't broaden the base relative to recruiting nor marketing.

What would help is nabbing a smaller, up and coming school in an area you would like the Big XII have more exposure (in every way).

Now BYU is interesting like Notre Dame is interesting because they have followers all over the country and have their own, built in TV deals.......but I just can't get too excited about BYU and I'm sure TCU, WV and ISU aren't too keen on that travel for every little sports program.

I'm not arguing a point rather I'm trying to expand the way folks look at this because it IS business and not just "the best football match up".

You make some very solid points and you exemplify what I have always said is the problem with going to the PAC.  How about UT's non-revenue programs, like softball, track, swimming, golf, etc.?  And never mind the sports fans, how about the parents?  How about having to travel to Oregon on a Wed. school night to play volleyball?  Especially if the game starts at 8pm, PCT and it's 10 PM CST?

The football fan, that has money, says I would love to visit Corvallis or LA as opposed to Lubbock or Waco.  That's true if you have the bucks and always make the stadium games.  But, I assure you, you are a minority.  And those of us that sit at home and watch on TV could give a rat's about the Rose Bowl.  We ain't there and it doesn't matter to us.

But the plus side of re-alignment or adding teams is it is critical that we do.  Or the Big 12 will ultimately die off.  School sports are driven by the money making programs and football is the biggest money maker for 90% of the schools.  And I'm not talking about stadium receipts - but TV revenues. 

Louisville is twice the money maker that TCU, Baylor, ISU or TTU are.  It simply has a bigger following of fans.  This makes them more valuable.  Hell, even Cincy has a bigger following than TCU or Baylor.

I don't care for BYU, but it has an international following of Mormons and the entire state of Utah.  Baylor and TCU have to compete with Texas and TAMU.  They don't have a chance to ever overcome either team.  They are up now, but they won't be able to sustain.

They simply ride the coattails of the big dogs - always have and always will.

So, once again, it's not about convenience or geography.  It's about the almighty dollar. 

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

I really don't see realignment coming again soon or the Big 12 picking up a couple of schools. What I think we'll see is the first super conference with the Big 12 merging with another conference. My guess is the ACC. 10 teams in each division. Winner of each division plays in the conference championship. This is how we'll get an 8 team play-off.

It may be football only.

What 5-6 teams are gonna get dumped to form two 10-team ACC divisions?

 

[castlebravo1]

What 5-6 teams are gonna get dumped to form two 10-team ACC divisions?

TX, TTtech, OU, and OSU to PAC

FSU, VaTech to SEC.

There's your six.

I know that FSU is a long shot into the SEC b/c of UF, but if something so big as the ACC and Big XII merging can happen, I believe that the SEC can swallow their pride and swallow up FSU.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

TX, TTtech, OU, and OSU to PAC

FSU, VaTech to SEC.

There's your six.

I know that FSU is a long shot into the SEC b/c of UF, but if something so big as the ACC and Big XII merging can happen, I believe that the SEC can swallow their pride and swallow up FSU.

It's not pride that stops FSU from being in the SEC. It's the U of Florida.

 

[castlebravo1]

It's not pride that stops FSU from being in the SEC. It's the U of Florida.

Right, the SEC's "pride".  protecting their territory.  Just like Aggy would never let us in or UGA would never let Ga Tech in.  They may become more pragmatic if they see a the Power 5 collapse into 4.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

Right, the SEC's "pride".  protecting their territory.  Just like Aggy would never let us in or UGA would never let Ga Tech in.  They may become more pragmatic if they see a the Power 5 collapse into 4.

It's an advantage UF has over FSU in many ways. They won't let go of that. UF apparently carries weight in the SEC.

Same with Ga Tech and UG, as you said.

Aggy would not have the same influence over a Texas bid to get in the SEC. Neither would Arkie. If anything, Arkie would vote us in for recruiting purposes alone. Same with LSU. But aggy would have a predictable issue with it. It's fun to think about, but will never happen.

 

[RgrLee]

This conversation has taken so many turns and its hard to debate each point. I think its easier to discuss the big picture because if you understand the big picture, the micro reasoning paints its own picture.

Lets debate TCU or Louisville within the Big XII.......to some point its moxnix because we cant source real numbers but lets do it anyways.

As with any business we'd have to compare revenue minus expense and then hedge that against time. Since time is of little to no consideration, lets just look at revenue minus expense.

#1. Does TCU and Lousiville demand the same, more or less revenue sharing relative to TV? I'd guess the BIg XII doesnt have to give TCU much while Louisville would be the same but possibly more.

#2. No brainer Louisville costs you more to play.....TCU game can be home games to a large part

#3. Does signing up Lousiville make it easier to recruit in the Ohio Valley or does it make it easier for the Ohio Valley to recruit in Texas?

I could go on and on but basicly i cant see ANYTHING Lousiville brings to the table that I didnt already get with WV. In fact i spend a bit of time in that area and WV is much more followed and has been for years. compared to TCU which costs you almost nothing; no brainer.

We mentioned BYU and that may make some sense but a huge pita factor.

But i through ULaLa into the mix......sounds crazy huh? I bet you could get them on the cheap, cheap giving something like 85% of the tv revenue back to UT because that 15% they would get is 500% more than they ever had before. Opens up good games within LA and thus challenging the LSU monopoly......its not like LSU gets those fans because their brand of football is good rather its the only big game in the state. I would bet money if the BiG XII signed up ULaLa it would be 5-6 years and they'd rise up and be considered as good as any other D1.

I also mentioned South Florida.....you don't want FSU or Miami trust me. You can have USF so so so much cheaper and they are in the top 5 most populous schools within the US. Easy campus to fly into thus cutting costs, fertile recruiting grounds, etc etc etc.

Just look outside the football as you see it because over the last 20 years, the SEC only has 3-4 good football teams. The other 8-9 are always in some sort of rebuilding or in total disarray.

As long as the Big XII keeps revenue parody alive, there is no reason for more major-market teams unless they bring a lot a lot to the table and none of those teams are interested. Take a school like LSU......why the hell should they share revenue with Arkansas, Ole Miss, Vandy, MiSs St., etc unless those schools are going to take the steps they need to increase the brand value.....but they wont.

In fact id argue Vandy makes more football profit.....pure profit than Arkansas whose expenses are major but product is minor; as long as the SEC shares in revenue.

I hope this is making sense to someone else other than myself...

 

[streettopeschel]

what is 'moxnix'? 

 

[streettopeschel]

It's not pride that stops FSU from being in the SEC. It's the U of Florida.

fsu ran roughshod over the acc for years and appears to be primed for another such run. every league is now rolling in TV money. why would they want to be in the sec? 

 

[primal defense]

The Big 12 is set up for success only if UT and OU are winning on a consistent basis. If UT and OU are both consist top 10 teams and you have both TCU and Baylor having good teams this year then you have a strong conference. Another year it was Oklahoma State. Those teams don't have a history of consistent winning. The Big 10 has been nothing for the last five years. Now with Meyer and Harbaugh, that should change.

Once UT starts winning on a consistent basis then the Big 12 will be strong or Texas should start looking around for something better.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

I hope this is making sense to someone else other than myself... 

Nothing about recommending U-La-La for Big12 membership makes sense. Hell, I'd rather have Tulane if we ever decided LA was a must-have market.

 

[streettopeschel]

The Big 12 is set up for success only if UT and OU are winning on a consistent basis. If UT and OU are both consist top 10 teams and you have both TCU and Baylor having good teams this year then you have a strong conference. Another year it was Oklahoma State. Those teams don't have a history of consistent winning. The Big 10 has been nothing for the last five years. Now with Meyer and Harbaugh, that should change.

Once UT starts winning on a consistent basis then the Big 12 will be strong or Texas should start looking around for something better.

i don't get the 'we need ou to be good' argument.

oregon has been a fixture in the NC hunt and the 'real' glamor program of the PAC, USC, has been largely a non-factor.

FSU is in the hunt the last two years. who has been their 'ou'? clemson? really?

michigan is OSU's 'ou' and they've been abysmal. 

you people trying to convince me to cheer for ou need to stop. 1) there's no evidence we need them to be good for us to be in the NC hunt (see 05 and 09) and 2) ou sux.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

you people trying to convince me to cheer for ou need to stop. 1) there's no evidence we need them to be good for us to be in the NC hunt (see 05 and 09) and 2) ou sux.

LOL...no doubt

Only reason to start this idiotic SEC SEC SEC like conference cheerleading is to root for a positive strength of schedule. I do hope OU is undefeated every year before we play them in Dallas. Makes us look better when we beat 'em.

 

[doc longhorn]

This conversation has taken so many turns and its hard to debate each point. I think its easier to discuss the big picture because if you understand the big picture, the micro reasoning paints its own picture.

Lets debate TCU or Louisville within the Big XII.......to some point its moxnix because we cant source real numbers but lets do it anyways.

As with any business we'd have to compare revenue minus expense and then hedge that against time. Since time is of little to no consideration, lets just look at revenue minus expense.

#1. Does TCU and Lousiville demand the same, more or less revenue sharing relative to TV? I'd guess the BIg XII doesnt have to give TCU much while Louisville would be the same but possibly more.

Not understanding your point here.  Revenue sharing construct is set up equally amongst the members.  At least once TCU and WVU are fully vested.

Besides, the discussion should be centered on the value of the programs and what each can bring to the Big 12 table.  Stadium attendance is a factor but is miniscule compared to TV sets.  TCU cannot compete with Louisville in this regard.

The Big 12 will not expand unless the new members are capable of bringing in enough revenue to offset splitting the networks pie 11 or 12 ways.  That will require a huge regional program or a program with a national footprint large enough to bring in the TV revenues.

#2. No brainer Louisville costs you more to play.....TCU game can be home games to a large part

Irrelevent - see #1

#3. Does signing up Lousiville make it easier to recruit in the Ohio Valley or does it make it easier for the Ohio Valley to recruit in Texas?

Once again, irrelevant.  Only relevant if the recruiting is rich enough to enhance the brand and, hence, increase the revenues.

I could go on and on but basicly i cant see ANYTHING Lousiville brings to the table that I didnt already get with WV. In fact i spend a bit of time in that area and WV is much more followed and has been for years. compared to TCU which costs you almost nothing; no brainer.

Louisville helps mitigate the fact that WVU is on an island.  By your own reasoning, it thusly reduces the cost factor of, at least, two members.  But, once again, the cost factor is not relevant as long as the member school is not a financial pariah to the conference. 

We mentioned BYU and that may make some sense but a huge pita factor.

The pita factor is inconsequential as long as, once again, the member school brings in the TV's.

But i through ULaLa into the mix......sounds crazy huh? I bet you could get them on the cheap, cheap giving something like 85% of the tv revenue back to UT because that 15% they would get is 500% more than they ever had before. Opens up good games within LA and thus challenging the LSU monopoly......its not like LSU gets those fans because their brand of football is good rather its the only big game in the state. I would bet money if the BiG XII signed up ULaLa it would be 5-6 years and they'd rise up and be considered as good as any other D1.

I also mentioned South Florida.....you don't want FSU or Miami trust me. You can have USF so so so much cheaper and they are in the top 5 most populous schools within the US. Easy campus to fly into thus cutting costs, fertile recruiting grounds, etc etc etc.

I surely wouldn't want Miami whom is just another UH.  I would gladly dump TCU AND Baylor for FSU.  The comparisons are simply no contest.

Just look outside the football as you see it because over the last 20 years, the SEC only has 3-4 good football teams. The other 8-9 are always in some sort of rebuilding or in total disarray.

As long as the Big XII keeps revenue parody alive, there is no reason for more major-market teams unless they bring a lot a lot to the table and none of those teams are interested. Take a school like LSU......why the hell should they share revenue with Arkansas, Ole Miss, Vandy, MiSs St., etc unless those schools are going to take the steps they need to increase the brand value.....but they wont.

In fact id argue Vandy makes more football profit.....pure profit than Arkansas whose expenses are major but product is minor; as long as the SEC shares in revenue.

I hope this is making sense to someone else other than myself...

 

[primal defense]

i don't get the 'we need ou to be good' argument.

oregon has been a fixture in the NC hunt and the 'real' glamor program of the PAC, USC, has been largely a non-factor.

FSU is in the hunt the last two years. who has been their 'ou'? clemson? really?

michigan is OSU's 'ou' and they've been abysmal. 

you people trying to convince me to cheer for ou need to stop. 1) there's no evidence we need them to be good for us to be in the NC hunt (see 05 and 09) and 2) ou sux.

To make myself clear, we don't need OU for Texas to be a national power. If we do go undefeated or lose one game were probably going to be in the NC series. We have a lot more fans and pull than TCU and Baylor.

I thought we were talking about the Big12 and it does enhance the conference to have at least two strong teams and a big conference game during the year. Such as the Alabama-LSU game a couple of years ago. The Big10 will be getting a bigger benefit in the future from the OSU-Michigan game once Harbaugh has them back.

I don' encourage anybody to root for OU unless it directly helps UT or they're playing the aggies.

 

[streettopeschel]

primal, perhaps i confused your point with numerous others i've read here and elsewhere saying we should root for ou and need them. my bad if that wasn't your intent.

i agree...some strong teams on the schedule will no doubt help, whether they be OOC or in-conference. ND is always ranked preseason. tcu will likely be preseason #2 in the polls next year. let's start with beating them.

 

[doc longhorn]

primal, perhaps i confused your point with numerous others i've read here and elsewhere saying we should root for ou and need them. my bad if that wasn't your intent.

i agree...some strong teams on the schedule will no doubt help, whether they be OOC or in-conference. ND is always ranked preseason. tcu will likely be preseason #2 in the polls next year. let's start with beating them.

Playing strong OOC teams will help, beating them will help infinitely more.

Baylor playing their embarrassing OOC schedule is what kept them from being in the 4 team playoff.  The Big 12 should have fined them for that schedule.  Their schedule, this year, is even worse.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Playing strong OOC teams will help, beating them will help infinitely more.

Baylor playing their embarrassing OOC schedule is what kept them from being in the 4 team playoff.  The Big 12 should have fined them for that schedule.  Their schedule, this year, is even worse.

I think, deep down, BU knows its only shot at the CFP is an undefeated season.

Can't really fault them for that.