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[DMAC]

Well I remember people going into cardiac arrest after Taysum Hill ran over our defense for 400 yards which cost Manny Diaz his job.  

Now we give 750 yards and its not even talked about.

That is lowering the standards and a sign of how freaking terrible it has been.  Crappy play has become the norm and acceptable to some. 

I'm going to say looking at the stats and records that Mack did more with alot less than Strong has done.  

We all heard was how Strong develops talent the first 2 years.  If that is true why is his defense 107th out of 128 teams and ranked 8th out of 10 in the Big 12?  

Seriously, we want hang Mack Brown after a 8-5 season 3 years out of a NC game and yet we are all willing to put up with this current bullshit with excuse after excuse.

It kind of reminds me the left wing's "It's Bush's fault" eight years later.

 

[oldhorn2]

I was glad to see Mack go, and I thought it was 2 years too late. That does not mean I am happy to see Charlie stay.

 

[bevo38]

Jeez nobody who thinks Charlie should stay thinks 5-5 or 700 yards of offense or whatever are ok. It is a false argument. Nobody is saying they want to keep Charlie AND go 6-6 for the next 10 years. If you think Charlie should stay, it is with the expectation (or hope) that the team will improve and/or there are no other better options. Being happy with the current state of the program and thinking Charlie should stay are not the same thing.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

I dont disagree with you often SHA but I do here.  Jordan Hicks, Malcom Brown (DL), Hassan Ridegway, and Quandry Diggs are all in the NFL.  They are not soft by any stretch.  

As a matter of fact, the BEST defense Mr Strong has enjoyed was with those so called soft players Mack left behind.

We bitch about Mack brown who won a NC and played for another vs Alabama in 2009.  Mack had a winning record in each of his last three years which Charlie hasnt even been able to get one in 3 years.  

Somehow people have this backwards.  They make excuses for our shitty .500 head coach at every turn but blast one of the all time greats.   Shameful.  

Some stats under Mack Brown:

Total Defense:
2012 - #67
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2012&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org&div=IA&dest=O
 
2011 - #11
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2012&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org&div=IA&dest=O
 
2010 - #6
http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2012&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org&div=IA&dest=O
 
I couldnt find 2013 stats.  
 
Under Strong his first year the defense was improved but his last 2 years have been absolutely pathetic...both of which our defense is ranked #108+.  Charlie Strong's defense has been total shit.
 
 
Records:
 
Mack Brown
2011: 8-5
2012: 9-4
2013: 8-5
Overall: 25-14 (2-1 in Bowl games)
 
 
Not so Strong
2014: 6-7
2015: 5-7
2016: 5-5
Overall: 16-19 (0-1 in Bowl games)
 
 
No more excuses.

DMac, telling what I believe to be the truth about Mack has absolutely nothing to do with Charlie Strong. It's not excuse-making or apologetics or anything like that. Its simply speaking my opinion on Mack.

Jordan Hicks finally blossomed his senior year. He was a five-star recruit. We got one reasonably good year from him.

Hicks' class included Darius White, Ashton Dorsey, Chris Jones, Greg Daniels, DeMarco Cobbs, Bryant Jackson, Traylon Shead, Carrington Byndom, Connor Wood, Adrian Phillips, Darius Terrell, Taylor Bible, Trey Hopkins and Tevin Jackson.

So one or two good recruits here and there do not make up for the dead weight we found in the previous sentence. This isn't even a fair argument, DMAC.

Hassan Ridgeway was a diamond in the rough. Recruited by Mack as a Tight End. He was ONE recruit that excelled past his expectations.

Quandry Diggs was a great guy, heart and soul of the team. But at 5'9 (really more like 5'8), he was a WR's wet dream. Mack really didn't have much choice in this one since Quandry was set on Texas before Mack even knew his name.

When you're stockpiling the cupboard with a bunch of no-name underachievers, it's called the Texas Longhorn Football Progarm immediately after Mack was gone.

Yeah, Mack played for a title in 2009. But everyone and their dog knows something happened to that man that night that was far worse than losing a football game. From that night-forward, we were a program sliding downhill fast.

And while you didn't notice the question you were forcing, I'll go ahead and ask it. How is it that Charlie can take the same players Mack had and produce a better defense in year 1?

And if you're going to throw in the national title and playing for a national title, why aren't you also throwing in all the 60-something to hardly anything losses we suffered to OU? Pretty significant if you ask me.

 

[Embrey]

Comparing Mack at his best to Charlie now is not an honest argument. Mack had a few great years and many very good years. He had the program cooking. Then it began to fall apart.

Comparing Charlie's first 3 years to Mack's last three is fair only if it is recognized that Texas' football program was headed downward (regardless of record) under Mack. Under Mack's watch, Texas A&M wrested recruiting dominance from Texas in the Lone Star state. Further, all those who complain about 5-7 or 6-6 from Charlie couldn't have been happy with the 7-5 or 8-4 Horns under Mack. Yet they pine for the good old days.

Charlie arrived with a talent cupboard that was very thin and his decision to release guys who couldn't adhere to his rules insured his sub-standard record in his first two years. I do not blame the release of these players on Mack. In fact, I don't blame anyone. Charlie made a choice which I think was a good one for the program in the long run. Charlie has to live with the fallout of that decision and coaching is a business that is measured by wins.

I understand those in Longhorn nation who have lost confidence in Charlie Strong. I have not. In retrospect I think Red McCombs had a point. Charlie's training was of a coordinator. Until this season, I think he still thought like a coordinator. However, I am encouraged that Charlie has closed the gap on the learning curve and that his approach is now one of a head coach. We are beginning to see his program develop.

His recruiting is stellar.

His defense is beginning to gel around these young players.

The offense no longer seems fundamentally disadvantaged to compete in this conference.

The players no longer comport themselves like prima ballerinas. They play hard and they love their coach.

I see the program as a glass that is half full.

 

[DMAC]

DMac, telling what I believe to be the truth about Mack has absolutely nothing to do with Charlie Strong. It's not excuse-making or apologetics or anything like that. Its simply speaking my opinion on Mack.

Jordan Hicks finally blossomed his senior year. He was a five-star recruit. We got one reasonably good year from him.

Hicks' class included Darius White, Ashton Dorsey, Chris Jones, Greg Daniels, DeMarco Cobbs, Bryant Jackson, Traylon Shead, Carrington Byndom, Connor Wood, Adrian Phillips, Darius Terrell, Taylor Bible, Trey Hopkins and Tevin Jackson.

So one or two good recruits here and there do not make up for the dead weight we found in the previous sentence. This isn't even a fair argument, DMAC.

You make a point.  Some of Mack's recruits didnt pan out for sure but this is also happening right before your eyes with D. Davis, Hill, MJ (to some extent), Vahe, and Burt.  These guys being coached up?  It is legitimate.  All of these guys are a shadow of themselves last year and some of them being benched for it.

Quandry Diggs was a great guy, heart and soul of the team. But at 5'9 (really more like 5'8), he was a WR's wet dream. Mack really didn't have much choice in this one since Quandry was set on Texas before Mack even knew his name.

He is in the pros.  What else can I say.

Yeah, Mack played for a title in 2009. But everyone and their dog knows something happened to that man that night that was far worse than losing a football game. From that night-forward, we were a program sliding downhill fast.

Yea it hurt to watch that game especially when my wife and father in law gave me shit all game.  Atleast he had a winning record and 2 bowl victories which I would gladly take now over the current shit show.

And while you didn't notice the question you were forcing, I'll go ahead and ask it. How is it that Charlie can take the same players Mack had and produce a better defense in year 1?

This is a good question but one that could turn against you just as easily.  Charlies best defense was with Mack recruits now 3 years later he cant even get above #107th in total defense the last 2 years.  Why is that?  Last time I checked M. Brown and Hassan were good under Mack as well as Charlie.  Yes the best defense under Strong was his first year.  I was excited to watch a smash mouth defense.  Where did it go?  It sucks now.  Why is that? Its surely not Mack's fault Charlie has under delivered.  

And if you're going to throw in the national title and playing for a national title, why aren't you also throwing in all the 60-something to hardly anything losses we suffered to OU? Pretty significant if you ask me.

Mack

2011

ou 55-17

2012

ou 63-20

2013 

ou  36-20

Strong

2014:

BYU 41-7

TCU 48-10

K-State 28-7

Toothless piggies 31-7

2015:

ND 38-3

TCU 50-7

Iowa effin State 24-0

2016:

No Lopsided losses thus far...thank god

Charlie has Stoops number...I have always agreed with that.  

If anything TCU has ripped Strong to shreds 98-17

 

[oldhorn2]

I am done defending Charlie. Even still, I believe that had Mack stayed on we would be in much,much worse shape today than we are now.

 

[oldhorn2]

while we are talking Jordon Hicks, lets not forget he also came in with 5 star Jefferson Jeffcoat. Both were 5 star recruits. Under Mack they were ok, but largely way under performed their ranking. Both were injured and basically were journeymen players. Under Strong Hicks did play well and stayed injury free. I dont think either were drafted.....both talented, but undrafted. I do blame Mack for that.

 

[DMAC]

We keep talking direction under Mack as if it was a given.

In 16 seasons Mack only had ONE losing season and only one season under 8 wins.

How many season has Charlie had under 8 wins.  

The answer.....all of em

 

[Sirhornsalot]

We keep talking direction under Mack as if it was a given.

In 16 seasons Mack only had ONE losing season and only one season under 8 wins.

How many season has Charlie had under 8 wins.  

The answer.....all of em

DMAC, I love ya man but you're locked into a comparison that I don't think is fair.

Also, I'm not saying (or anyone else, I think) that Mack was a bad coach. I love Mack and he did great things here. But he was a different Mack and Texas was in decline those last four years.

When Mack took the Texas job, he had a Heisman winner waiting for him. What did Charlie get?

I have no wish to throw Mack under the bus and would rather spend that time look ahead for a brighter future. Mack finished his course and will go down in our books as one of the best ever. He was what Texas needed at that time.

I also think Charlie is what Texas needed this time. He cleaned the program up. We don't have Baylor worries. And Charlie has been consistent across the board – something I think is under-appreciated. I'd like to keep him if we can. I don't like where we are, but I by no means think we're staying where we're at. 

 

[MikeV73]

while we are talking Jordon Hicks, lets not forget he also came in with 5 star Jefferson Jeffcoat. Both were 5 star recruits. Under Mack they were ok, but largely way under performed their ranking. Both were injured and basically were journeymen players. Under Strong Hicks did play well and stayed injury free. I dont think either were drafted.....both talented, but undrafted. I do blame Mack for that.

Hicks was drafted, don't recall what round. He has started the last two years in Philly, but I think he might be injured currently. Just an FYI, not an argument😜

 

[Sirhornsalot]

You make a point.  Some of Mack's recruits didnt pan out for sure but this is also happening right before your eyes with D. Davis, Hill, MJ (to some extent), Vahe, and Burt.  These guys being coached up?  It is legitimate.  All of these guys are a shadow of themselves last year and some of them being benched for it.

Sophomore slump? Malik was just in a funk. I wish my funks were as good as his. lol Yes, I think they're being coached up very well. But you only get so far with Freshmen and sophomores.

MJ played out of position much of last year. Same as this year. When he's on the edge he's something else. I think he's better than last year, if only knowing the defense we're playing so well.

He is in the pros.  What else can I say.

Yea it hurt to watch that game especially when my wife and father in law gave me shit all game.  Atleast he had a winning record and 2 bowl victories which I would gladly take now over the current shit show.

I understand my friend. Completely understand. I've been in those uncomfortable shoes. At least under Charlie you're able to dole a bit of it back out and don't have to worry with blowouts. Again, thats just what he's done with freshmen and sophomores.

This is a good question but one that could turn against you just as easily.  Charlies best defense was with Mack recruits now 3 years later he cant even get above #107th in total defense the last 2 years.  Why is that?  Last time I checked M. Brown and Hassan were good under Mack as well as Charlie.  Yes the best defense under Strong was his first year.  I was excited to watch a smash mouth defense.  Where did it go?  It sucks now.  Why is that? Its surely not Mack's fault Charlie has under delivered.  

Because they were veterans. When the veterans left and the older backups were expected to move up, it didn't materialize because the older backups were, well, bad. Very bad.

You're also conveniently forgetting that today, the Big 12 is a high flying conference where every offense is a variation of another's passing O. That wasn't the case when Mack came to Texas. We had a few with Tech and OU, but the rest were rather ordinary until Briles showed up in Waco.

As for your numbers, well, yes, rebuilding can look a little ugly at times.

 

[DMAC]

For the most part the offense is fixed from the Watson era.  

I'll be honest I hate this video game offense crap.  Dont get me wrong I like scoring but Sweet Jesus play some defense too.  I want our defense to be stout.  Maybe its a pipe dream in this day of the spread offense.  I dont want to be another Texas Tech.

I was more excited under Strong first year and watching our defense smack people in the mouth.  I miss it.  

If Strong does stay around another year, he has no excuses if our defense is bad next year.  His super Freshmen will be Juniors.  

 

[oldhorn2]

Frankly Dmac,,,you and I are closer in opinion than you might think. One thing though.....while it is true that Mack only had one losing season I have to wonder if at any other time in the history of CFB has a team gone to the championship one year and followed that with a losing season the very next year?

 

[DMAC]

I have to wonder if at any other time in the history of CFB has a team gone to the championship one year and followed that with a losing season the very next year?

Good point its probably very rare.  Losing Colt hurt as we didn't have any good replacement for him.  

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I can understand both sides of the "should he stay or should he go" argument and everyone has made valid points on both sides.  I think Charlie stays and here's why - FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out. Just like an investor that is hoping to find the next Amazon, Google or Facebook, you invest in something that has peaked your interest and there's nothing better out there.  Without a sure fire coach to hire, the powers that be are afraid that they may cut Charlie loose 1 year too early.  They know what he's building, what he has returning,  coming in and the fact that his impact players will be a year older. Herman was the hot candidate for a while, but has cooled off a bit.  Even if he was still the hot commodity, what has he done so much better than Charlie at this same point of their HC career that makes him that much better?  He could be Charlie 2.0.  While Herman also brings that FOMO factor, I believe Fenves and company are not ready to let go of in-house stock that could skyrocket.  Not saying it will or won't, but Charlie's tenure has had some unfortunate circumstances, some his fault, some not, that have left some questions unanswered, but will be to his benefit as they will give him year 4th just in case the goldmine was already there.  Just my 2 cents.  

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

It's looking more like CFS will return in 2017 barring an embarrassing loss to KU and/or a blow-out loss to underwhelming TCU.

I just don't think Fenves or Perrin want to make a change right now.

 

[Utjb27]

DMac, telling what I believe to be the truth about Mack has absolutely nothing to do with Charlie Strong. It's not excuse-making or apologetics or anything like that. Its simply speaking my opinion on Mack.

Jordan Hicks finally blossomed his senior year. He was a five-star recruit. We got one reasonably good year from him.

Hicks' class included Darius White, Ashton Dorsey, Chris Jones, Greg Daniels, DeMarco Cobbs, Bryant Jackson, Traylon Shead, Carrington Byndom, Connor Wood, Adrian Phillips, Darius Terrell, Taylor Bible, Trey Hopkins and Tevin Jackson.

So one or two good recruits here and there do not make up for the dead weight we found in the previous sentence. This isn't even a fair argument, DMAC.

Hassan Ridgeway was a diamond in the rough. Recruited by Mack as a Tight End. He was ONE recruit that excelled past his expectations.

Quandry Diggs was a great guy, heart and soul of the team. But at 5'9 (really more like 5'8), he was a WR's wet dream. Mack really didn't have much choice in this one since Quandry was set on Texas before Mack even knew his name.

When you're stockpiling the cupboard with a bunch of no-name underachievers, it's called the Texas Longhorn Football Progarm immediately after Mack was gone.

Yeah, Mack played for a title in 2009. But everyone and their dog knows something happened to that man that night that was far worse than losing a football game. From that night-forward, we were a program sliding downhill fast.

And while you didn't notice the question you were forcing, I'll go ahead and ask it. How is it that Charlie can take the same players Mack had and produce a better defense in year 1?

And if you're going to throw in the national title and playing for a national title, why aren't you also throwing in all the 60-something to hardly anything losses we suffered to OU? Pretty significant if you ask me.

I agree with you except for the part about Quandre Diggs. He's an everyday player in the NFL and makes a lot of plays for the Detroit Lions every week - even at 5'8". And he was great at UT as well. We needed, and still need, more players like him (In terms of performance and attitude both ON and OFF the field).

 

[Sirhornsalot]

I agree with you except for the part about Quandre Diggs. He's an everyday player in the NFL and makes a lot of plays for the Detroit Lions every week - even at 5'8". And he was great at UT as well. We needed, and still need, more players like him (In terms of performance and attitude both ON and OFF the field).

I can agree with that. But keep in mind, NFL success is not necessarily a reflection of their time at Texas.

See Marcus Wilkins.

 

[MBHORNSFAN]

It's looking more like CFS will return in 2017 barring an embarrassing loss to KU and/or a blow-out loss to underwhelming TCU.

I just don't think Fenves or Perrin want to make a change right now.

I would have agreed with you a week ago but there seems to be some serious smoke in the last 2 days and it appears to be trending towards making a change..