RANDOLPH DUKE THE AGS LOVE YOU

[streettopeschel]

Weird thread to read from start to finish.

 

[Johnstark23]

Hi Street, great to see you around these parts.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

Keep deflecting there chief, everyone sees right through your bullshit.

 

[MikeV73]

Hi Street, great to see you around these parts.

Second that^^^. Continue enjoying the weirdness of this thread STP. Well worth the hefty price of our yearly membership fees.

 

[MikeV73]

Hi Street, great to see you around these parts.

Second that^^^. Continue enjoying the weirdness of this thread STP. Well worth the hefty price of our yearly membership fees.

 

[streettopeschel]

The Longhorn-aggy athletic history is an interesting one. It started in 1894. Each is mentioned in the other's fight song. Aggy was a rival when Teddy was Pres. Ou not really until Franklin.

Many or most of us don't know many Sooners. Many or most of us know a shitload of ags. We all talk shit. It's what college sports is best at.

Threads on this board and others continually get multi-pages on aggy related topics. But they're 'not a real rival'. OK

Somehow one man's fascination/obsession over the 12th man has become something of a cottage industry. And they're obsessed with us?

E King Gill? Trademarks? I don't give a crap. As a Longhorn fan TGiving was a helluva lot more interesting playing them than Tech.

The two best feelings in the sports world are walking out of the Cotton Bowl a winner in October and out of Kyle Field a winner in November. .

 

[BeardedTexan]

Just a few questions

Does A&M still hold their trademark?

Has Judge Lake been put on review or been challenged at all because of all this?

I was promised that Sharp would be publicly embarrassed and would have to answer for A&M fraud, has this happened?

Has the Texas AG made a ruling on, or even seen, anything related to this?

Has anything actually happened from all of your posturing? Anything besides a blog post on TexasMonthly's website where you were openly ridiculed? (And yes, it's a blog post, not an "online edition of the magazine". It literally says daily post in the link)

 

[TeamMayhall]

Weird thread to read from start to finish.

Welcome back STP!

 

[Randolph Duke]

Everything in time, by Bearded frien, but before we deal with your questions, let's finish with my question from yesterday that you so predictibly ignored.

What if E. King Gill was right when he said the school's 12th Man tradition originated with E.E. McQuillen's 1939 radio play?

I know you never saw Gill's explanation of the origins of the tradition until I made Gill's 1964 speech part of my research. We have bultiple instances over many years of Gill giving this exact same explanation without ever even hinting at another version of events. In fact, in in 1964 speech he mentions he was asked by others to explain the origin of the tradition and that doing so was an easy task.

In their federal filings, the TAMU administrators have represented the 12th Man mark was originally adopted in 1922 as a remembrance of a student, E. King Gill. That statement is in direct opposition to Gill's explanation of how the tradition originated. Reconciling the two opposing statements is impossible. We know somewhere around 1920, the school's fans adopted the commonly used phrase "12th Man" to refer to their fans in the stands. Hundreds, if not thousands, of other teams either had been doing the same for decades or were doing so when the ag college began doing the same. this common use of the phrase continued until some time after E.E. McQuillen wrote his radio play in1939 that inflated the reaction and significance of Gill's 1922 actions which Gill himself recognized "caused no great stir" and went universally unmentioned until McQuillen's work of radio fiction.

As an aside, the phrase "twelfth man" as applied directly to American collegiate football seems to have first been applied by Walter Camp and Lorin Deland on page 171 of their 1896 book "football" which is available from Google books. Their exact quote was:

[SIZE=12pt]“Now that you have selected your method of work, let us say few words on the errors which you should avoid. Your first efforts will very likely be wasteful of men. There are only eleven of them, as you will soon learn to your sorrow, for many a clever move will fail you for the lack of a twelfth man.â€[/SIZE]

So Texas A&M University didn't originate the phrase "12th Man." The school simply just adopted it over a quarter century after others has already been using it freely, used it in a manner indistinguishable from how others used it for decades after adopting it, didn't recognize Gill as the school's for decades after having first adopted it and pretty much has no unique claim to the phrase save and except a deceptive and misleading claim made in various federal filings to the origin of the school's tradition that is diametrically opposed to the origin of the school's tradition as told by the principal figure in the school's 12th Man tradition. Do I have the basic elements of the school's 12th Man tradition right?

So what if E. King Gill was being honest when he repeatedly explained the origin of the schools tradition over all those years. What if the university administrators are the ones being intentionally dishonest and E. King Gill was being truthful? Why would Gill go around year after year reciting a false version of the origin of the school's tradition in the first place? And if Gill was constantly lying about the origin of the tradition, why did not even a single aggy ever challenge his lies and correct the record? If he had been lying for years about the origin of the tradition, why did the school invite him to speak before the assembled students, administrators and alumni on San Jacinto Day in 1964 to repeat his lies before people who were at he game, who also sat quietly and let Gill tell what you claim was a batch of lies?

We know the answers. John Sharp and the aggy administrators are the ones lying about the school's 12th Man tradition. Gill was being honest. You were lied to at fish camp, just as aggys have been lied to at fish camp for years when it comes to the school's q12th Man tradition. The USPTO was lied to. As was the federal court in the matter against the Colts.

Once it has been proven the university administrators have been lying to the alumni, to the general public and in their federal filings, the only thing left to show is that the school administrators unquestionably knew they were lying.

I fully understand the aggy education does an incredibly does a horribly poor job of developing critical thinking skills. But try as you can to explain to yourself was Gill an inveterate liar? What would have been his motivation for having intentionally deceptive and dishonest for the last quarter century of his life?  Or, just possibly, what if Gill's version of the school's 12th Man history was true and accurate?

Here is a hint to help you- Gill was right and the university administrators who are today claiming the "12th Man mark was originally adopted in 1922"have been lying to you, your friends, the alumni, the general public and the federal courts. The TAMU senior administrators are corrupt. John Sharp and Michael Young are corrupt state employees. To answer one of your questions, if you knew of state employees who were acting corruptly in the course of their official duties, would you speak up?

 

[BeardedTexan]

What if E. King Gill was right when he said the school's 12th Man tradition originated with E.E. McQuillen's 1939 radio play?

This in itself is a moronic question since there has been documented proof that A&M used the phrase 12th man prior to 1939.

 

[dillohorn]

How many sheep does it take for aggy to have a 12th "man" ?

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

This in itself is a moronic question since there has been documented proof that A&M used the phrase 12th man prior to 1939.

There's also documented proof that Iowa and Minnesota - among others - used the term "12th man" before aggy.

 

[BeardedTexan]

And of course you know you don't have to be the organization that created the term in order to trademark it.

 

[Randolph Duke]

This in itself is a moronic question since there has been documented proof that A&M used the phrase 12th man prior to 1939.

Au contraire, my friend. It matters very much.

In their federal court filings in the case against the Colts, the university represented, to the best of knowledge and belief:

"The 12TH MAN Mark was initially adopted in 1922 as a remembrance of a student at Texas A&M, E. King Gill, and his spirit of readiness to serve Texas A&M’s football team in time of need."

This single statement stands as the university's representation of the origin of the school's 12th Man tradition. It is an intentionally false and deceptive statement. You may believe intentional dishonesty doesn't matter, but not everyone is equally as ethically bereft or more tied to groupthink than to principles of honesty and personal integrity.

Prior use of the phrase in a generic sense indistinguishable from the use by hundreds, if not thousands, of other schools doesn't absolve the university from proving their statement that the mark was originally adopted in 1922. Either it was or it wasn't. Gill says there was no 12th Man tradition on campus prior to the 1939 radio play. Is Gill being truthful or was he an inveterate liar? You tell me.

Was E. King Gill correct when he repeatedly claimed the school's tradition was originated in 1939 when E.E. McQuillen quote a radio play loosely based on the events surrounding a 1922 football game? Yes or no?

Use of the phrase prior to McQuilen's radio play doesn't mean the use of the phrase was in connection with the school's 12th Man tradition. The reality is that prior to the 1939 radio play, the school simply referred to its fans as the school's 12th Man. Hundreds of other schools were doing the same, many starting decades prior to when TAMU adopted the practice. Hundreds were doing so after TAMU adopted the practice and hundreds continued to do so after the 1939 radio play that originated the school's 12th Man tradition.

I understand why the school's administrators and alumni have to close their eyes to the truth and live what everyone else would consider a lie. Living a lie is fine if that is what you need to do to get through your day. The problem comes when you start attacking indigent cripples like Chuckie Sonntag because he doesn't buy your fake story or the lies you have told to help you cover up the fact that your alumni are ignorant about the history of their school and have fallen for lies told by senior university administrators. Attacking innocent individuals for not living your lies is despicable and is something I have a tough finding another example of outside the twisted aggy culture.

There is no honor in living a lie. There is no honor in intentionally filing false documents with federal authorities. There is no honor in teaching lies at your "fish camp" or lying to the public about who you are and about the history of your school. Plain and simple, there is no honor in outright dishonesty, especially when it is promoted by a publicly funded institution of higher education. Intellectual honesty and academic integrity should be hallmark values of an academic institution. Obviously, they aren't at Texas A&M University.

Use of the phrase 12th Man prior to the origination of the school's 12th Man tradition means little when you are intentionally dishonest with others about the origin of your tradition, especially with the dishonesty is perpetrated in federal filings made under penalty of perjury. There is nothing to be proud of in intentional dishonesty.

The plain fact is that E. King Gill was correct when he explained the school's 12th Man tradition originated in 1939 when E.E. McQuillen wrote a radio play loosely based on a 1922 football game. It is unquestionable that the assertion the school originally adopted the mark in 1922 as a remembrance of E. King Gill is an intentional lie. And it is an unquestioned fact your rubes have been dumb enough to fall for a batch of intentional lies.

Why not encourage your senior university administrators to abandon their long-running pattern of deception and lies, to embrace Gill's explanation of the origins of the tradition and start being honest yourselves and the general public. It Is simply wrong for a major public university to be knowingly and intentionally promoting ignorance.

It is time for the administrators and alumni of Texas A&M to get out of the fetid sewer of deceit and dishonesty. The people of Texas deserve better than the dishonesty they have been getting all these years from the administrators and alumni of Texas A&M.

 

[BeardedTexan]

Man, that's a lot of words to say that A&M still owns the trademark and is in no danger of losing it.

 

[Randolph Duke]

Man, that's a lot of words to say that A&M still owns the trademark and is in no danger of losing it.

Texas A&M also held the secrets to alchemy and cold fusion for a while. How did all that turn out for you guys?

I am convinced dishonesty runs deep in the culture of Texas A&m University and its alumni. The fact you refuse to accept the dishonesty being perpetrated, all for a sake of a beloved trademark, is comical. It is also worrisome that individuals with this low ethical standard are given positions of authority in our society.

The reaction of the aggy alumni to all this is telling and only makes the story more humorous, on one hand, and more depressing on the other. You lack the ability to reconcile the words of Gill with the claims made by university administrators yet you were conferred college degrees. That doesn't speak very highly of the caliber of the aggy education.

In time, my friend. In time.

It is still amazing the alumni and the university willingly sacrifice their personal integrity all over a silly trademark. You guys have some very strange values.

 

[tejasrulz]

And of course you know you don't have to be the organization that created the term in order to trademark it.

aggy just admitted they stole it from someone else. But wait, aggy doesn't lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those that do. Or do they? Well there's another tradition proved hollow/false!

 

[BeardedTexan]

No one at any point said that A&M created the 12th man tradition, A&M has just used it the most over the history of football and rightfully filed and owns the trademark on it.

 

[tejasrulz]

No one at any point said that A&M created the 12th man tradition, A&M has just used it the most over the history of football and rightfully filed and owns the trademark on it.

So you trademarked a saying that you stole, got it and I really don't care. However most aggys I know think they invented it so you might be mistaken there.

 

[BeardedTexan]

Did y'all come up with the word Texas? Did y'all come up with the word Longhorn? What about Bevo? You didn't come up with any of those but I bet you've got some trademarks related to them.