Rationale for Big 12 Expansion?

[gemini]

Okay, just for fun, I'll play along with this idea. I'll assume we'd strong-arm Notre Dame into full time membership to get to 26.
But, now what do we call ourselves? Super-BIG? The Colossal Conference? All-America Conference?

Southwest Division

UT, OU, Tech, Baylor, Ok State, TCU

Midwest Division

KU, KState, Iowa St, Louisville, Pitt, WVU, Notre Dame

Atlantic Division

BC, Syracuse, MD, UVa, VaTech, Wake Forest

Southeast Division

UNC, Duke, NC St, Clemson, GaTech, FSU, Miami

26 seems too many.

16 teams 4 pods

Southwest Division

Baylor, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St

Midwest Division

Kansas St, Iowa St, Notre Dame, Louisville

Atlantic Division

West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke

Southeast Division

Clemson, Florida St, Miami/Central Florida, Georgia Tech

 

[Hoekem]

26 seems too many.
16 teams 4 pods

Southwest Division

Baylor, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St

Midwest Division

Kansas St, Iowa St, Notre Dame, Louisville

Atlantic Division

West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke

Southeast Division

Clemson, Florida St, Miami/Central Florida, Georgia Tech

Kansas has to replace either KSU or Iowa St. The ACC will want them for basketball. There are enough middle of the road teams like the former to be invited over KU for that reason only. KSU may be a better overall selection, but I'm afraid they would get trumped.

 

[Irish in SEC country]

Frank the Tank on possible Big 12 expansion

I hope I make the link work.

Frank has been correct about a number of things. He knew that the Big Ten could neither bribe nor bully ND into joining. He knew that the ACC was far stronger and tighter than most Big Ten fans can accept. Does he know the Big 12 well?

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Frank the Tank on possible Big 12 expansion
I hope I make the link work.

Frank has been correct about a number of things. He knew that the Big Ten could neither bribe nor bully ND into joining. He knew that the ACC was far stronger and tighter than most Big Ten fans can accept. Does he know the Big 12 well?

I can't argue with Frank's analysis - it's well thought out. Definitely agree that BYU is the only home run addition we can make right now. But, if we do that we leave WVU on an island out east. I still believe the Big12's next move is in that direction with Cincinnati and Central Florida.

Both will be surprisingly competitive on Day One.

 

[Irish in SEC country]

I can't argue with Frank's analysis - it's well thought out. Definitely agree that BYU is the only home run addition we can make right now. But, if we do that we leave WVU on an island out east. I still believe the Big12's next move is in that direction with Cincinnati and Central Florida.
Both will be surprisingly competitive on Day One.

Cincinnati is a border state school to WVU. That would eliminate WVU as alone on an island.

FL is a very long way from WV and OH. If you add UCF, you create another island. So the issue would be, assuming UC is added, which island is better for the Big 12 - UCF or BYU? UCF is a much better state for football recruiting, but BYU has a much larger football fan base and basketball fan base.

Or would it be best to have three islands after adding BYU and UCF? Or as you suggest, adding 2 Eastern time schools to go with WVU, UC and UCF.

There are no easy answers.

 

[TheContractor]

Where would you rather have a presence, Utah or Florida.

Easy answer, imo

 

[joebobb]

Cincinnati and UCF are both diamonds in the rough. Will both win the Big XII in the first few years, no, but they will provide strong competition and not be bottom dwellers either.

The Cincinnati/Dayton area is an island in Ohio. They are more of a Southern City with about 3 million people to it than a Midwestern city. They have an extremely loyal fan base and recruiting base. Ohio is a top talent state for football recruiting and their rise in football directly correlates to their conference. 10 years ago they were in CUSA and while they were competitive, never won. They were competing against MAC schools and CUSA schools for talent. When they got into the Big East, they were taking recruits who were going to Michigan State and Illinois and Purdue away when they were on that plain. Same would be true if they were in the Big XII. They would take recruits away from Kentucky, Vandy, even competing with Tennessee's of the world. Reason being is that the recruits there are very loyal to the city , if you grow up there you want to stay there. To play for the home town school in a talent rich football location, is huge. In Cincinnati, HS students would rather play for Cincinnati over Ohio State. Ohio State does not recruit well in Cincinnati but they have the rest of the state circled. The top prospects in Cincinnati are going to the SEC because of the draw of Kentucky being close to home. Imagine being able to get them to the Big XII. The fans in Cincinnati hate Ohio State so having Cincinnati play in a conference of equals would be an insult to Ohio State.

Academically, Cincinnati is a very respected research institution with a goal to become an AAU member. They have a very strong basketball program with a new arena on the way. THey have newer facilities and a renovated football stadium coming. They are pretty much a top 25 market in a football hungry state. In addition, they would agree to just about almost any deal to get out of the AAC now so any deal could be skewed to the Big Xii advantage.

 

[TheContractor]

Good info on Cincy

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Cincinnati and UCF are both diamonds in the rough. Will both win the Big XII in the first few years, no, but they will provide strong competition and not be bottom dwellers either.
The Cincinnati/Dayton area is an island in Ohio. They are more of a Southern City with about 3 million people to it than a Midwestern city. They have an extremely loyal fan base and recruiting base. Ohio is a top talent state for football recruiting and their rise in football directly correlates to their conference. 10 years ago they were in CUSA and while they were competitive, never won. They were competing against MAC schools and CUSA schools for talent. When they got into the Big East, they were taking recruits who were going to Michigan State and Illinois and Purdue away when they were on that plain. Same would be true if they were in the Big XII. They would take recruits away from Kentucky, Vandy, even competing with Tennessee's of the world. Reason being is that the recruits there are very loyal to the city , if you grow up there you want to stay there. To play for the home town school in a talent rich football location, is huge. In Cincinnati, HS students would rather play for Cincinnati over Ohio State. Ohio State does not recruit well in Cincinnati but they have the rest of the state circled. The top prospects in Cincinnati are going to the SEC because of the draw of Kentucky being close to home. Imagine being able to get them to the Big XII. The fans in Cincinnati hate Ohio State so having Cincinnati play in a conference of equals would be an insult to Ohio State.

Academically, Cincinnati is a very respected research institution with a goal to become an AAU member. They have a very strong basketball program with a new arena on the way. THey have newer facilities and a renovated football stadium coming. They are pretty much a top 25 market in a football hungry state. In addition, they would agree to just about almost any deal to get out of the AAC now so any deal could be skewed to the Big Xii advantage.

Damn, Joe Bobb knows a lot about Cincinnati!

I've only visited there once, but it did have a very "southern" feel (of course it was summer!). Kinda like a Memphis or Little Rock. Let's not forget that it's a BIG school, too, with enrollment over 40k! Home games versus UT and OU can be played in 70k+ Paul Brown Stadium.

 

[joebobb]

Got my graduate degree at Cincinnati.

They played OU at Paul Brown a couple of years ago and pretty much sold out for that game.

They have one of the coolest on-campus stadiums to watch a game. Although Texas would probably never get a chance to play there since they would be in Paul Brown. They will travel to big games too. when they played in the Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl they had no trouble selling their allotted tickets. They will travel to WVU, Tex, OK. They will not travel as much to places like ISU, TCU, Tech. They will also bolster the basketball credibility of the conference which is an added benefit.

The city also was listed as one of the emerging markets for start up businesses, akin to Austin 15 years ago.

 

[theknighttrain]

I can concur on this as I have been working for a Cincinnati-based company for two years now. The Bearcats have a good program and I see no reason for them to backslide. They could easily become a better-than-Baylor team in the next couple of years. THat would put them in the middle of the Big 12 pack, and improve the basketball ranking of the Big 12 too.

Got my graduate degree at Cincinnati.
They played OU at Paul Brown a couple of years ago and pretty much sold out for that game.

They have one of the coolest on-campus stadiums to watch a game. Although Texas would probably never get a chance to play there since they would be in Paul Brown. They will travel to big games too. when they played in the Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl they had no trouble selling their allotted tickets. They will travel to WVU, Tex, OK. They will not travel as much to places like ISU, TCU, Tech. They will also bolster the basketball credibility of the conference which is an added benefit.

The city also was listed as one of the emerging markets for start up businesses, akin to Austin 15 years ago.

 

[TheContractor]

I can concur on this as I have been working for a Cincinnati-based company for two years now. The Bearcats have a good program and I see no reason for them to backslide. They could easily become a better-than-Baylor team in the next couple of years. THat would put them in the middle of the Big 12 pack, and improve the basketball ranking of the Big 12 too.

I dont deny that Cincy can be a competitive team but when u say better than Baylor, are you saying the leader in the Big 12 in football and a top 10 team? Thats what Bu is these days. It aint your daddys Baylor anymore.

 

[Irish in SEC country]

Got my graduate degree at Cincinnati.
They played OU at Paul Brown a couple of years ago and pretty much sold out for that game.

They have one of the coolest on-campus stadiums to watch a game. Although Texas would probably never get a chance to play there since they would be in Paul Brown. They will travel to big games too. when they played in the Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl they had no trouble selling their allotted tickets. They will travel to WVU, Tex, OK. They will not travel as much to places like ISU, TCU, Tech. They will also bolster the basketball credibility of the conference which is an added benefit.

The city also was listed as one of the emerging markets for start up businesses, akin to Austin 15 years ago.

As a UC grad who cares about Bearcat sports, I assume you know that UC made a big push to get the ACC opening that went to Louisville. You probably also know that ND always recruits the Cincinnati area heavily, for high quality students as well as football players. And that means that should ND decided to become a full member of ACC football, she might want UC to be the 16th ACC school.

I assume you also know that there is 0 shot for UC to ever be allowed in the Big Ten. Ohio State is far too jealous to allow that.

If you care about UC, then the last thing you should want is Texas going to the Big Ten and thus helping the Big Ten, which will only push UC down more.

 

[joebobb]

Uc is a better fit in the acc than big 12. There is no chance they will get in the big because of osu. They want the acc just like wvu wants the acc. It would keep the rivalry with Louisville and it is closer for travel, it is better in basketball than big xii, and uc recruits the east very well in basketball now. That being said. Uc would jump to the big xii in a heartbeat because the acc won't commit, and uconn is the rumored 16th team.

The Acc stopped at 14 because they hoped nd would be that 15th team. That hope pretty much died for the next decade when nd played in the national championship last year. In addition they saw both cincinnati and uconn with no other options so they could wait. If the big xii scoops uc up first then it keeps the acc from going to 16 without nd as a full member.

To answer your question, uc is nice and a competitive team but they are equivalent to a Baylor or k state. They can potentially win the conference on occassion but do not have the ability to dominate over the span of a decade, unlike tex or ok. If tex in the big hurts uc in the big xii so be it. Heck uc is a better fit in the acc culturally. Ow a yeah with Louisville and Pitt who are natural rivals

 

[joebobb]

The other great thing about the cincinnati are is that there are about 10 players who are the caliber of Jordan hicks coming out of there every year(4-5 star). Osu will get about 2 typically nd gets their 2 Michigan will take a couple too. The rest go primary to sec schools because Kentucky is so close. Imagine if they were going to tex or other big xii schools instead