A Small Political Question

[JimsTexas]

Can someone please tell me why Russia is a member of the G8. The only thing that comes out of Russia is oil and leaders who seem to want to grab land again. The Russian currency is the Ruble is rankes somewhere around 31 in the world.The 1 USA Dollar will get you 36 Ruble. How can a Russia be considered a power player in the world with that kind of economy. When all they want to do is grab up other countries side with the likes of NK and others. My friends y'all have a great week

 

[monarch]

Can someone please tell me why Russia is a member of the G8. The only thing that comes out of Russia is oil and leaders who seem to want to grab land again. The Russian currency is the Ruble is rankes somewhere around 31 in the world.The 1 USA Dollar will get you 36 Ruble. How can a Russia be considered a power player in the world with that kind of economy. When all they want to do is grab up other countries side with the likes of NK and others. My friends y'all have a great week

russia today, still comprises a very large land mass as a country.  underneath this very large land mass (country) is obviously a large amount of natural minerals vs OIL.  russia, currently supplies basically half of europe with a large amount of natural gas vs supplies.  as the "cold war" came to an official end, the "powers that be" joined together, to grant russia a membership into the "g8" as a token of respect to russia, as per their good standing vs worldwide relations.  additionally, one must never forget the very fact that, although, the cold war has officially ended, russia today is still a growing economy that is constantly viable.  when russia conforms as it must, and lays down it's "imperialistic" cold war aggressions...  the world can be a better place with russia.

however, when russia performs the way that it is performing during it's current aggression into "crimea"...  then it shall be a moment for the "powers that be" to react accordingly.  

 

[BudreauReye]

Can someone please tell me why Russia is a member of the G8. The only thing that comes out of Russia is oil and leaders who seem to want to grab land again. The Russian currency is the Ruble is rankes somewhere around 31 in the world.The 1 USA Dollar will get you 36 Ruble. How can a Russia be considered a power player in the world with that kind of economy. When all they want to do is grab up other countries side with the likes of NK and others. My friends y'all have a great week

Beginning of caveat ... 

Subjects such as these are replete with the possibilities of misunderstandings and hard feelings.

I'm no expert and I do not know much, but I am an avid follower of world events and history.  Russia is obviously an oligarchic remnant of the 19th Century.  When Communism failed, they had no other economic/political system to fall back on because they had no democratic or free market precedents in their history.  Their population is falling and their "Grand Siberian Empire Experiment" has failed.  They see themselves surrounded by hostile cultures and influences.  They are striking out now in a last gasp effort to try to maintain some semblance of safety for what they see as their very life being.  They are stuck in 19th Century thinking and the oligarchs see their very cultural life dying.

The reason that the G8 reached out to them is not so much because they fit in, but because the Russians possess the remnants of the military power structure of the USSR.  They possess the ability to wreak havoc on the very tenuous economic well being of the Western World.  The Russians by and large, are Slavs, descendents of Vikings who moved up and down the Russian river systems, conquering and settling, much like they did in the Western European river systems and along the Western European coastline and the British Isles before they were finally assimilated. My take on it is that the Western Europeans see the Russian Slavs as distant but wayward cousins that they hope that they might be able to tame and bring back into the family fold.

Old dreams of Empire and what might have been, die hard.  It seems like a long time has past since the raiders from the North invaded what is now the British Isles, France Spain and Portugal.  The Scandinavians are a welcome part of us now.  We will see whether the Russian Slavs will follow.

I want to say, that I have all kinds of opinions with regards to history, politics, religion and why we as humanity are the way we are.  I am willing to participate in discussions of all of these issues, with respect.  But ... I have no intention of participating in the disrespectful "drive by" name calling and insults that were a major reason that I left the Horns 247 site. 

I do not run this site, but here are the criteria regarding these types of discussions that will determine whether I stay here or not ... Discuss with respect, or keep your mouth shut and your keyboard quiet.  If you offend someone, even if you did not intend it, apologize.  Maintain a sense of humor ... You will probably need it, and you will probably appreciate it when your debate opponent exhibits the same.   Hmmm  ... sounds like the beginning of a manifesto.

... End of caveat.

 

[BudreauReye]

russia today, still comprises a very large land mass as a country.  underneath this very large land mass (country) is obviously a large amount of natural minerals vs OIL.  russia, currently supplies basically half of europe with a large amount of natural gas vs supplies.  as the "cold war" came to an official end, the "powers that be" joined together, to grant russia a membership into the "g8" as a token of respect to russia, as per their good standing vs worldwide relations.  additionally, one must never forget that very fact that, although, the cold war has officially ended, russia today is still a growing economy that is constantly viable.  when russia conforms as it must, and lays down it's "imperialistic" cold war aggressions...  the world can be a better place with russia.

however, when russia performs the way that it is performing during it's current aggression into "crimea"...  then it shall be a moment for the "powers that be" to react accordingly.  

What you are saying is interesting.  Your comments about Russia's natural resources and how they affect Europe are very relevant.  It is interesting that the pipelines for natural gas and oil from Russia, that mainly go through the Ukraine have until recently, been one way pipelines with the flow going one way from Russia to Europe.  That puts a lot of leverage with the Russians immediately.  However, I have read that a reconfiguring of the pipelines is taking place so that, I am not sure about the numbers, but I think three out of nine pipelines have had reversible valves installed, and more are planned over time, so that oil and gas can be sent back to the Ukraine and other countries to the southern periphery of Russia.  This is not an immediate solution but indicates that the US and Canada, in the future, will be able to send liquid natural gas to the very countries that Russia now holds hostage with it's energy exports.  I am not so sure that your comment about Russia being a growing economy will hold true.  I think that over time, their economy will either stagnate or begin to collapse.  They depend in large part on their energy resources and, historically, like most countries who have economies that are mostly dependent on energy resources, the Russians have not spent the resources necessary for revitalizing their economy in general or specifically their energy infrastructure.  Therefore, in fact, their economy may well be declining instead of improving over the near future. That may well be why they may be making more land grabs amongst areas that are predominately Russian speaking at their periphery.  Dying Empires strike out, even in their death throes.

Interesting discussion, no?

 

[BudreauReye]

Nevermind!  Double post.

 

[JimsTexas]

I want to thank y'all for all these great post I also follow the world news. I had a father who was in 13 battles in the Pacific served in the Navy UDT. That group of Americans set the bar how the rest of the world views the USA. We have the greatest Americans men and women who are serving in the American Armed Forces.

But it still bothers me to see so many die on foren shores. I might be wrong but I still don't think people like the French appreciate the sacrifice made by the American men who freed their country. If we have one real allie it would be UK i might be wrong.

My friends y'all have a great week

 

[BudreauReye]

I want to thank y'all for all these great post I also follow the world news. I had a father who was in 13 battles in the Pacific served in the Navy UDT. That group of Americans set the bar how the rest of the world views the USA. We have the greatest Americans men and women who are serving in the American Armed Forces.

But it still bothers me to see so many die on foren shores. I might be wrong but I still don't think people like the French appreciate the sacrifice made by the American men who freed their country. If we have one real allie it would be UK i might be wrong.

My friends y'all have a great week

You could be right about the French, and I have nothing to base this on but a little of what I have read, the impressions I have received from some French folks over the years, and a whole lot of gut feelings - but,  I think that the French really do appreciate what the US did in WW2.  From what I have read, the French from all generations really show it in the commemorations of the Normandy invasion.  I think that the French are just DIFFERENT. They have a way of seeing themselves as the center of the universe ... maybe not so different from us after all, huh? 

You are definitely right about the British, When I was in gradual school back in the late seventies, I took a European architectural tour one summer.  When we visited Oxford, we just so happened to be there during one of the intersession periods and most everything was closed.  By happenstance, we came across a groundskeeper.  When we inquired as to whether we would be able to get in to any of the buildings, he said that he was just getting off of his shift and was headed home, but that perhaps he could let us into the building next to us.  Well, three hours later, we finished a private Grand Tour while being regaled with wonderful historic anecdotes about the campus, as well as many stories from when he as a young boy during the war, and including his profound interest in the stories of any of our fathers who had served in the war.

We got to Paris on a day that turned out to be a national holiday when it was customary that the banks close at noon.  Not knowing this, after checking into our hotel, I tried to find a bank where I could change some money.  Arriving at a bank just after the doors closed I was immediately accosted by a young man who baled off of his vespa so that he could, up close and personal, berate me about knowing absolutely nothing about the mores and customs of the country that I was visiting.  Almost instantaneously from behind me emerged a little old man in a dapper suit, wearing a beret and carrying a cane.  With much force of will, he drew himself up, hobbled up to the young man and whacked him on the side with his cane.  He proceeded to curse the young man and continue to whack the young man on the back as he made a hasty retreat to his vespa.  He gave the rear of the vespa one last whack as the young man left with dispatch.  He then returned to me, looked up at me for a long moment as if he were taking my measure.  He then smiled and with a wink said, "Young people!  They show no respect for our visitors!"  Yes, the French are different! 

 

[Sirhornsalot]

Can someone please tell me why Russia is a member of the G8. The only thing that comes out of Russia is oil and leaders who seem to want to grab land again. The Russian currency is the Ruble is rankes somewhere around 31 in the world.The 1 USA Dollar will get you 36 Ruble. How can a Russia be considered a power player in the world with that kind of economy. When all they want to do is grab up other countries side with the likes of NK and others. My friends y'all have a great week

Because they are a major supplier for Europe with regard to natural gas and oil

Also, Russia and China have been buying up all the gold they can find. This is a strategic move against the dollar with aims of supplanting the dollar as the world standard currency. Meanwhile, we print money like it's gonna get us free barbecue - to the point where soon the dollar will be worth very little. It's why we're all seeing all of these gold commercials on TV for the past two years. They know whats up.

Anyone who mines gold in Russia or China HAVE to sell whatever they find back to those two respective governments, no exceptions.

 

[BudreauReye]

Because they are a major supplier for Europe with regard to natural gas and oil

Also, Russia and China have been buying up all the gold they can find. This is a strategic move against the dollar with aims of supplanting the dollar as the world standard currency. Meanwhile, we print money like it's gonna get us free barbecue - to the point where soon the dollar will be worth very little. It's why we're all seeing all of these gold commercials on TV for the past two years. They know whats up.

Anyone who mines gold in Russia or China HAVE to sell whatever they find back to those two respective governments, no exceptions.

Bringing China into the discussion, don't forget other mineral resources, such as rare earths.  China has a virtual world monopoly on rare earth resources, and they are critical to high tech industry.  Russia also has immense natural resources other than petrochemicals.  Their problem is that the majority of these resources are in Siberia, and since they are not investing in their infrastructure, I have read that large parts of Siberia is becoming depopulated and, over time, as Russia's population declines, especially in Siberia, that we may well see the Russian Federation begin to grow ragged around the edges with natural geographic and ethnic parts of the Federation eventually seeking independence.  Also, I have read that the Chinese may very well have long term interest in reclaiming parts of Russia that they have long considered to be their historic territory.  Then again, China has it's own aging problem that bodes to be unprecedented in it's effect due to China's shear size.  I have read that the growth of the Chinese economy is unsustainable outside of the next twenty years.

 

[killrjoe]

Great discussion, guys. Very informative and very civil.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

Bringing China into the discussion, don't forget other mineral resources, such as rare earths.  China has a virtual world monopoly on rare earth resources, and they are critical to high tech industry.  Russia also has immense natural resources other than petrochemicals.  Their problem is that the majority of these resources are in Siberia, and since they are not investing in their infrastructure, I have read that large parts of Siberia is becoming depopulated and, over time, as Russia's population declines, especially in Siberia, that we may well see the Russian Federation begin to grow ragged around the edges with natural geographic and ethnic parts of the Federation eventually seeking independence.  Also, I have read that the Chinese may very well have long term interest in reclaiming parts of Russia that they have long considered to be their historic territory.  Then again, China has it's own aging problem that bodes to be unprecedented in it's effect due to China's shear size.  I have read that the growth of the Chinese economy is unsustainable outside of the next twenty years.

Well, the real issue is gold. When the dollar crashes and is replaced, those with gold will be stable and able to do what they want - like China and Russia. The US has sold much of it's gold that it once balanced the dollar against. The US is going to be in a world of hurt and what's crazy is - anyone can see this coming. It's like we're doing this intentionally and I just don't get it at all.

 

[JimsTexas]

Hey there folks I want to thank y'all for the great response to my question. One more thing if Russia did emplode just think of the void in Europe. I would like to think it would be a good void. My friends y'all have agreat weekend

 

[BudreauReye]

Hey there folks I want to thank y'all for the great response to my question. One more thing if Russia did emplode just think of the void in Europe. I would like to think it would be a good void. My friends y'all have agreat weekend

Of course, the implosion is already transpiring in very slow motion after the fall of the Soviet Union. It will probably, eventually affect the southern areas and the "Wild East" of Siberia, areas that are not historically Slavic Russian.  Of course, the case can be made that large swaths of Siberia were historically uninhabited by European standards, except very sparsely by folks native to those regions.  I would imagine that there would always be a substantial Slavic Russian kernel in the West that would hopefully, eventually become more European in nature.

 

[JimsTexas]

Of course, the implosion is already transpiring in very slow motion after the fall of the Soviet Union. It will probably, eventually affect the southern areas and the "Wild East" of Siberia, areas that are not historically Slavic Russian.  Of course, the case can be made that large swaths of Siberia were historically uninhabited by European standards, except very sparsely by folks native to those regions.  I would imagine that there would always be a substantial Slavic Russian kernel in the West that would hopefully, eventually become more European in nature.

I agree it will happen at some point but right now a x KGB man has control and the KGB is still strong. Europe will be better off with a weak Russia. Right now like y'all said Russia is surrounded by countries that support NATO so I would think that any move by Russia to take more countries would come with a move by NATO ( God forbid that should happen. Russia has no real Navy bases like the US and NATO so that would surley hurt. I have really enjoyed talking with y'all on this topic and my friends y'all have a good day.

 

[echeese]

Great discussion, guys. Very informative and very civil.

ditto. . . .excellent thread. . .not sure I have much to add but to always remember Putin started as a KGB officer and longs for the days of the "glory of the USSR". . . 

 

[JimsTexas]

ditto. . . .excellent thread. . .not sure I have much to add but to always remember Putin started as a KGB officer and longs for the days of the "glory of the USSR". . . 

cheese I sure hope that we have seen the last of those days like you I also grew up during the cold war. Lets hope that the Russen people find the balls and will not allow there goverment to bring back those glory days. Should the USSR try to bring those days a lot of busness I think would leave before the USSR took them over. I am not sure that is not happening on a small level. My friends y'all have a great weekend

 

[BudreauReye]

I agree it will happen at some point but right now a x KGB man has control and the KGB is still strong. Europe will be better off with a weak Russia. Right now like y'all said Russia is surrounded by countries that support NATO so I would think that any move by Russia to take more countries would come with a move by NATO ( God forbid that should happen. Russia has no real Navy bases like the US and NATO so that would surley hurt. I have really enjoyed talking with y'all on this topic and my friends y'all have a good day.

Part of the problem is that since the days of the Cold War, NATO has been partly "defanged" by its' own doing.  NATO would be well challenged to defend all of its' new members in any confrontation with Russia.  This is exacerbated by the refocusing of the US geopolitically and militarily on Asia, with diminishing military resources to boot.  I don't really know anything, but I think that Putin is prodding and testing to see if he could get away with re-incorporating the major Russian speaking areas of The Ukraine, the predominately Russian speaking Transnistria which is a part of Moldova, and major Russian speaking areas of the Baltic countries.  I have even read that the Russians may have their eyes on parts of Finland that were historically a part of Russia for some time. 

The Russians cannot match the US Navy in the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans, but their Navies and Air Forces are designed to make the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea, their back yard ponds.  The US is not about to send an aircraft carrier task force into either sea.  Russian cruisers are dedicated anti-ship missile platforms armed with very long range anti-ship missiles, that are very fast and have very heavy warheads.  They are backed up with numerous shore batteries and aircraft squadrons that are dedicated to the same types of anti-ship missiles.  All of this solely to project power out on these seas and their neighbors if they choose to do so.  From what I have read, I have little doubt that the US would win out in any head to head military confrontation with Russia, but the question is at what cost.  I think that Putin's objective in The Ukraine is to see how far he can go before the US and the Europeans would say no more. Therein lies the difficult rub.  The danger is in over-reacting but also in under-reacting.  Putin is thinking like a Nineteenth Century despot jealously eying an Empire that would be his, if only he would reach out and take it.  The question is, will Realpolitik or Dreams of Empire win out in the end?

Here is a good article entitled, How vulnerable are U.S. Navy vessels to advanced anti-ship cruise missiles?" from Military and Aerospace Electronics.  It is a good read if you like this kind of thing.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/blogs/aerospace-defense-blog/2013/07/how-vulnerable-are-u-s-navy-vessels-to-advanced-anti-ship-cruise-missiles.html

 

[JimsTexas]

Part of the problem is that since the days of the Cold War, NATO has been partly "defanged" by its' own doing.  NATO would be well challenged to defend all of its' new members in any confrontation with Russia.  This is exacerbated by the refocusing of the US geopolitically and militarily on Asia, with diminishing military resources to boot.  I don't really know anything, but I think that Putin is prodding and testing to see if he could get away with re-incorporating the major Russian speaking areas of The Ukraine, the predominately Russian speaking Transnistria which is a part of Moldova, and major Russian speaking areas of the Baltic countries.  I have even read that the Russians may have their eyes on parts of Finland that were historically a part of Russia for some time.  The Russians cannot match the US Navy in the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans, but their Navies and Air Forces are designed to make the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea, their back yard ponds.  The US is not about to send an aircraft carrier task force into either sea.  Russian cruisers are dedicated anti-ship missile platforms armed with very long range anti-ship missiles, that are very fast and have very heavy warheads.  They are backed up with numerous shore batteries and aircraft squadrons that are dedicated to the same types of anti-ship missiles.  All of this solely to project power out on these seas and their neighbors if they choose to do so.  From what I have read, I have little doubt that the US would win out in any head to head military confrontation with Russia, but the question is at what cost.  I think that Putin's objective in The Ukraine is to see how far he can go before the US and the Europeans would say no more. Therein lies the difficult rub.  The danger is in over-reacting but also in under-reacting.  Putin is thinking like a Nineteenth Century despot jealously eying an Empire that would be his, if only he would reach out and take it.  The question is, will Realpolitik or Dreams of Empire win out in the end?

The USA and its European allies would never allow Poland, German and Finland to be occupied by Russia. Just my thoughts. My friends y'all have a great weekend.

 

[BudreauReye]

The USA and its European allies would never allow Poland, German and Finland to be occupied by Russia. Just my thoughts. My friends y'all have a great weekend.

I don.t think so, either.  Or the Baltic states or any other counties that have joined NATO either.  On the other hand, If Russia moved on The Ukraine, I think we would squawk a lot but we would not intervene militarily.  In effect, we have already telegraphed that. Though, If the Ukrainians showed a willingness to develop a resistance movement, I think we would arm them.  I think that the USA and Europe thinks that they can affect Russia with regards to The Ukraine with economic sanctions..  I think that sanctions already affected the agreement that was reached yesterday.  However, I think that Putin is just trying to buy time to see how things play out.

By the way I amended my previous post with an article on the U.S. Navy's concern over the vulnerability of ships to anti-ship missiles.