*****TEXAS vs. KANSAS GAME THREAD*****

[dillohorn]

This thread should die

Not yet. Plenty of problems to discuss. If you think this game is going to cause a lot of discussion, just wait for the next 3 games.  

 

[Sirhornsalot]

I think we're making more of it than there has to be. Just my opinion.

We had a bad game. At home. A week after OU against a Kansas team that debuted a new offense against us. But we won. 

Week after week until now, we've seen how injuries were hurting us. We saw some inexperience hurting us. And the tackling issue arose in the last two weeks primarily, coinciding with Foster's shoulder injury. 

To cut to the chase:

1. We're not as good as some thought we'd be, but not as bad as some feared we'd be. We have a chance to get healthy and get better.

2. Yes, it was Kansas. But that was not KU's normal offense. I fear they've entered the 21st Century offensive strategy, Big 12 style. They will get better each week with that scheme. At the same time, we were banged up and not playing our best. The result was a little predictable.

3. Regarding Orlando . . . I was taught not to make decisions when you're pissed or upset. I would play a wait and see approach for the rest of the season. For some time, he's been a highly regarded defensive coach. This particular year, I think our personnel has hurt him in that it doesn't provide the experience his scheme requires. If he stinks up the place the remainder of the year, then yeah, let him go.

 

[Captain Hookem]

3. Regarding Orlando . . . I was taught not to make decisions when you're pissed or upset. I would play a wait and see approach for the rest of the season. For some time, he's been a highly regarded defensive coach. This particular year, I think our personnel has hurt him in that it doesn't provide the experience his scheme requires. If he stinks up the place the remainder of the year, then yeah, let him go.

I believe this is core issue for most. It's not that we had one bad game vs Kansas, but that the defense hasn't been good for a while. For the last 3 seasons here are the defensive rankings:

• 2017: 30
  
• 2018: 58
  
• 2019: 97 *
  

The 2019 numbers should improve as the season goes on, but at this point don't have a chance to be better than 2018. 

Orlando gets a lot of credit for what he did in 2017 and deserves it. He created a new defense out of nothing, and especially compared to Bedford looked great. But then... what happened? 

Even if you take out the B12 question and just compare Texas D to only B12 schools, we are slipping:

• 2017: 3rd
  
• 2018: 4th
  
• 2019: 8th *
  

Even if we don't have a great overall defense we should be tops in the B12. Orlando has had a tough beat this year with injuries, but the overall trend was down before this.

Most of my questions in this thread revolve around trying to figure out whether the scheme (coaching) is failing or the personnel just isn't there. It's an incredibly difficult question to answer.

As a side note, I don't understand the push to shut this discussion down. A mid-year review of a failing defense seems like a pretty appropriate discussion to have. 

 

[Eastexhorn]

Last time I looked Texas had a lot of beef in thier DL.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

I believe this is core issue for most. It's not that we had one bad game vs Kansas, but that the defense hasn't been good for a while. For the last 3 seasons here are the defensive rankings:

• 2017: 30
  
• 2018: 58
  
• 2019: 97 *
  

The 2019 numbers should improve as the season goes on, but at this point don't have a chance to be better than 2018. 

Orlando gets a lot of credit for what he did in 2017 and deserves it. He created a new defense out of nothing, and especially compared to Bedford looked great. But then... what happened? 

Even if you take out the B12 question and just compare Texas D to only B12 schools, we are slipping:

• 2017: 3rd
  
• 2018: 4th
  
• 2019: 8th *
  

Even if we don't have a great overall defense we should be tops in the B12. Orlando has had a tough beat this year with injuries, but the overall trend was down before this.

Most of my questions in this thread revolve around trying to figure out whether the scheme (coaching) is failing or the personnel just isn't there. It's an incredibly difficult question to answer.

As a side note, I don't understand the push to shut this discussion down. A mid-year review of a failing defense seems like a pretty appropriate discussion to have. 

You have reasonable concerns, I'm not knocking you. I think the bottom line is the Big 12 is catching up to Orlando's scheme and he hasn't thrown in wrinkles to offset that. He does not have the personnel (experienced) needed to overcome this. We knew going into this season we were going to hurt in the experience department.

The push to end the thread is likely just the fact that its a game thread and we're almost into the next weekend/game already. And of course, it's a Kansas thread. OU was a little understandable.

 

[Sirhornsalot]

 

[83Dee]

If the problem on defense is personnel - that is squarely on the coaches (at the college level).  Especially in year 3.  

Orlando did a nice job in 2017 with players recruited for a much different scheme.  I thought it was reasonable to expect better things ahead with his recruits.  

Finally, as to this scheme needing experience.... one of my biggest suspicions is that Orlando's scheme is too difficult / requires too much thinking rather than beating your man and flying to the ball.  I think Ehlinger hinted at this in a comment after OU.  Complex schemes designed for trickery better serve mid-majors; not blue bloods.  

 

[DBut82]

As much flack as TO is getting right now (and deservedly so), he'll look like a genius next year.  I mean, if his style of defense requires "experience", we'll have that in excess next year.  Also, let's not forget that as of this moment, all of our season goals are still attainable.  I really can't understand why the sky is falling.  As @Sirhornsalot mentioned, we all expected a drop off on defense due to lack of experience (I think we only returned 3 starters on defense).  Couple that with the injuries, what did we honestly expect?  Idk, the overreaction is a trip.  But I understand to an extent.  We knew we would need to rely on the offense and thank God for Sam.  I think we'll get past TCU and have a much needed bye.  We go 4-0 down the stretch and our record is 10-2 going into the conference championship.  Not a bad season imo...regardless of the heart palpitations we have to endure lol 

 

[primal defense]

I feel like I keep seeing the same movie over and over again with different actors. The last top notch DC we had was Will Muschamp.  We hired Manny Diaz after Muschamp went to Florida and his first year was great and then he had a disastrous second season and was fired after the second game during his third season.
 
Then Charlie Strong and Vance Bedford had a good defensive first season, then a bad second season, and finally a bad third season to where they were both fired.
 
Now we have Orlando who had a good first year and mediocre second year and now a horrible third year.
 
I hope Orlando can fix the defense, however recent history says otherwise. It seems you need to have it fixed during the spring and fall and not during the season. The one bright spot is if we can get some of our injured players back and not lose anyone else.

 

[Eastexhorn]

10 and 2 would be great. IMO very doubtful. Like slim and none and slim just left town.

 

[83Dee]

As much flack as TO is getting right now (and deservedly so), he'll look like a genius next year.  I mean, if his style of defense requires "experience", we'll have that in excess next year.  Also, let's not forget that as of this moment, all of our season goals are still attainable.  I really can't understand why the sky is falling.  As @Sirhornsalot mentioned, we all expected a drop off on defense due to lack of experience (I think we only returned 3 starters on defense).  Couple that with the injuries, what did we honestly expect?  Idk, the overreaction is a trip.  But I understand to an extent.  We knew we would need to rely on the offense and thank God for Sam.  I think we'll get past TCU and have a much needed bye.  We go 4-0 down the stretch and our record is 10-2 going into the conference championship.  Not a bad season imo...regardless of the heart palpitations we have to endure lol 

I may be naive, but I didn’t expect a drop off on defense. As a matter of fact, I thought the DLmen were bigger and better suited for a 3 man front.  I was a bit concerned about the LB corps but expected greatness from the secondary.  In any case I never dreamt that I’d be starring at THE WORST defense, statistically, in school history!!!  Frame it any way you want, it’s pretty difficult to explain that away by youth or even injuries.

I’m all for evaluating at the end of the season.   But I, for one, buy into the idea that Texas - with all her built in advantages - should be elite in football.  Certainly not happy to be the 30th best defense in the country and always looking up at OU.   

 

[83Dee]

Keep in mind that a drop off on the defensive side of the ball means worse than the 58th ranked defense in the country.  Again, I wasn’t expecting this.  Certainly not year 3.   

 

[83Dee]

Ok, my game was a bit later than the 1990 UH game on second thought.  Was 1995 I believe.  I was still pissed though?

1990 we beat them from whistle to buzzer.  

 

[Bear19]

As much flack as TO is getting right now (and deservedly so), he'll look like a genius next year.  I mean, if his style of defense requires "experience", we'll have that in excess next year.  Also, let's not forget that as of this moment, all of our season goals are still attainable.  I really can't understand why the sky is falling.  As @Sirhornsalot mentioned, we all expected a drop off on defense due to lack of experience (I think we only returned 3 starters on defense).  Couple that with the injuries, what did we honestly expect?  Idk, the overreaction is a trip.  But I understand to an extent.  We knew we would need to rely on the offense and thank God for Sam.  I think we'll get past TCU and have a much needed bye.  We go 4-0 down the stretch and our record is 10-2 going into the conference championship.  Not a bad season imo...regardless of the heart palpitations we have to endure lol 

We ain’t going 4-0 down the stretch unless we put pressure on the quarterback. If we continue to rush only three it’s more likely to be 1-3. 

 

[Drb522]

Reading the back and forth, I agree with a lot that has been said. My question is:

Do we not have the personnel to exert pressure on the QB and hold the edge against a running game? Or is it the scheme? Personally I think it might be a little of both. TQ has not lived up to expectations. Neither has Roach for that matter, but we know he has shown the ability dominate the OLineman in front of him. The 4i technique is designed to clog the middle and funnel everything outside where the LB's can pursue and the safeties crash to the LOS. It is asking too much for a DE to play the inside shoulder of the OT and contain. If TO won't change from the 3-3 at least he should consider letting his DE's play a 5 technique on the outside shoulder of the OT.

To me it’s the scheme.  You’ll never get pressure on the qb playing a tight 3 man front.  When your DL has no one lined up outside the tackles you have no threat of getting up field unless you bring a blitz outside.  Then you have ample time to find the hot route as LSU did.  This defense works fine against an immobile qb.  You can bring pressure on him up the middle and force him out the pocket ala Jake Fromm in the sugar bowl.  A guy like Jalen Hurts will make you pay with this scheme.  This scheme requires blitzes to get pressure and if you’re not getting it you are leaving your DBs to cover a lot longer than they should have to.  To me a simple fix of going to a 4 man front would cure most of Texas’ issues.  Form a pocket around the qb and force him up in it.  Texas sees more mobile QBs in the Big 12.  Even Carter Stanley og Kansas was able to move around enough and find open receivers or pick up some yardage.   

 

[Drb522]

I think we're making more of it than there has to be. Just my opinion.

We had a bad game. At home. A week after OU against a Kansas team that debuted a new offense against us. But we won. 

Week after week until now, we've seen how injuries were hurting us. We saw some inexperience hurting us. And the tackling issue arose in the last two weeks primarily, coinciding with Foster's shoulder injury. 

To cut to the chase:

1. We're not as good as some thought we'd be, but not as bad as some feared we'd be. We have a chance to get healthy and get better.

2. Yes, it was Kansas. But that was not KU's normal offense. I fear they've entered the 21st Century offensive strategy, Big 12 style. They will get better each week with that scheme. At the same time, we were banged up and not playing our best. The result was a little predictable.

3. Regarding Orlando . . . I was taught not to make decisions when you're pissed or upset. I would play a wait and see approach for the rest of the season. For some time, he's been a highly regarded defensive coach. This particular year, I think our personnel has hurt him in that it doesn't provide the experience his scheme requires. If he stinks up the place the remainder of the year, then yeah, let him go.

The problem is this staff finds ways to keep games closer than they should.  Texas has the talent advantage over Kansas even starting so many young guys.  The scheme employed in the game required too much from them and it showed.  Why didn’t 46 and 6 start at LB?  Did Herman think we could sleepwalk to a win over lowly Kansas?  Even breaking in a new OC Kansas showed they have the talent to score on teams.  We already knew what Pooka brought to the table from last year.  Start your better players.  Get the lead and then play your younge guys. 

 

[Drb522]

I may be naive, but I didn’t expect a drop off on defense. As a matter of fact, I thought the DLmen were bigger and better suited for a 3 man front.  I was a bit concerned about the LB corps but expected greatness from the secondary.  In any case I never dreamt that I’d be starring at THE WORST defense, statistically, in school history!!!  Frame it any way you want, it’s pretty difficult to explain that away by youth or even injuries.

I’m all for evaluating at the end of the season.   But I, for one, buy into the idea that Texas - with all her built in advantages - should be elite in football.  Certainly not happy to be the 30th best defense in the country and always looking up at OU.   

Wilbon and Christmas-Giles both would serve well as a DT next to Coburn/Ojomo in a 4 man front.  But Texas is allowing them to redshirt so they can grad transfer next year.  To me, you play to win.  If those guys can help you make your defense better you do it.  It’s not on the Texas staff to find players nice landing spots because they don’t fit the scheme we want to run.  Run a scheme that fits your personel.  
 

TO uses the blitz a lot and he leaves the middle open.  Then he doesn’t employ blitzes and gets no pressure on the qb and the stand back there picking their noses and your secondary apart.  The problem is glaring to me, and stubbornness is the problem.

 

[Eastexhorn]

Over the years I have observed that Def. Cords. are a three man front or four man. And do not change. i have liked the four man due to Leons suscess. Have saw some 3-4 schemes that was good bur every one now wants five DBS.

However theres some problem with team and or coaches.

 

[83Dee]

Over the years I have observed that Def. Cords. are a three man front or four man. And do not change. i have liked the four man due to Leons suscess. Have saw some 3-4 schemes that was good bur every one now wants five DBS.

However theres some problem with team and or coaches.

I agree.  But whether 3-4 or 4-3 you typically have 4 on the LOS and rushing the passer.  The ideal (IMHO) is to have a good pass rush from your front 4 without blitzing.  If you blitz you are risking the big play.  If you drop more into coverage you are sacrificing your pass rush.  

Texas should be able to recruit players (4-3 or 3-4) to generate a pass rush with the front 4 and not completely rely on blitzing DBs and LBs to pressure the QB.  

I would also add that the more DBs you run onto the field at one time, the more you are sacrificing run defense.  

 

[hookemhorb]

10 and 2 would be great. IMO very doubtful. Like slim and none and slim just left town.

And that's why they play the games. Otherwise, everyone would be 12-0.