Big 12: Expansion vs Breakup

[Capn Hook]

Conferences don't "kick out" or "drop" schools. That has never happened and it never will. You can't just kick out a school because you don't like them or because they don't have perceived value in a certain sport.

Not quite true, the Big East told Temple to become more competitive in football and get better attendance or get the hell out. Temple was booted and spent a few years in the MAC, but are now back in the new refurbished Big East now called the American Conference.

 

[Pancho Negro]

Not quite true, the Big East told Temple to become more competitive in football and get better attendance or get the hell out. Temple was booted and spent a few years in the MAC, but are now back in the new refurbished Big East now called the American Conference.

Link?

And 1 school from the Big East that isn't even a major school.

The Big 12 isn't going to "kick" anyone out nor will they threaten schools. Neither will the BIG, SEC, PAC, or ACC.

 

[Embrey]

Not quite true, the Big East told Temple to become more competitive in football and get better attendance or get the hell out. Temple was booted and spent a few years in the MAC, but are now back in the new refurbished Big East now called the American Conference.

Neither TCU nor Iowa State can be compared to the Temple situation in the Big East. Specifically, why do so many people favor dropping TCU? I see that thrown around here a lot. If it is competetiveness then where was the big call to ditch Baylor for the first 10 years of the Big 12? No, there is something rotten in Denmark here. Why do so many UT backers want TCU out of the league? Recruiting?

 

[BBQ time]

I still like the idea of us going independent. It grants you the opportunity to put a schedule like this together:
Game 1: vs. LSU

Game 2: vs. TCU

Game 3: @ Notre Dame

Game 4: @ Texas Tech

Game 5: vs. Oklahoma

Game 6: @ Oklahoma State

Game 7: UCLA

Game 8: @ Arizona State

Game 9: USC

Game 10: @ Florida

Game 11: Ohio State

Game 12: Texas A&M

2005 Texas with Urban Meyer as coach would lose two games against that schedule.

 

[doc longhorn]

There have been many arguments about this - ad nauseum.

I think the way to view this question is to gain some altitude and consider the desires of the schools fans as opposed to the schools administrations. Because I believe they are diametrically opposed to each other. Take UT for instance - it has never considered the fans desires as a motivator for change - ever. We have always been at the mercy and whims of the leadership and their wants and needs. And the administration wants and needs are driven by the almighty dollar.

WVU and TCU did NOT bring direct revenues - but they did bring a cohesion and stabilization of the Big 12. Even if it was only 10 teams. That is why the Big 12 will not expand unless the candidate will add revenues to the conference. And that is from the school itself, or the addition bringing more value to the conference, i.e., revenues.

IMO, the University of Texas administration considers the Big 12 as it's own personal playground and profit engine. Why would it go indy or to another conference? It has a birds nest on the ground in the Big 12. It essentially owns it and the other schools are puppets on the string for it. We are as attractive as ND and even more profitable. If we desire, we can schedule basically any team we want (remember - $$) and we have the clout (once again, read $$) to actually pursue, with some anticipation of success, other national teams as potential members of the Big 12.

You think not? I give you the Big 8 and TCU and WVU.

There is a possibility it is happening today. With the Northwestern debacle, conferences will become more and more desirable. So will the profitable programs. Conferences will be circling the wagons, I assure you. And they will be looking with a jaundiced eye at the money losers within their conferences. You don't think Baylor, TCU, KSU and Iowa State aren't concerned?

How desirable will FSU and Louisville be for the Big 12 now? Big time, I am betting.

Better yet, how desirable will they be to UT - for augmenting their little commune? Be aware and follow the money, friends. You would be surprised how things start coming together for you.

And, like McPhaul said, keep your eyes on the ACC and the Big East. I don't know anything, but I have a feeling.

.

 

[coolhorn]

If the Big XII goes the expansion route, and assuming there is interest on Clemson's part, and assuming there is NO interest on FSU's part, I see the Big XII adding Clemson and Central Florida and being done with expansion. Randolph Duke said there are a lot of variables out there right now, and I agree, so Clemson making a move is not a sure thing. I don't see any other viable candidates for expansion.

I know UT's administrators have said they'd prefer to stay with the Big XII, and I kinda believe them. However, when everything shakes out, I think UT and OU making a move is gonna become an imperative, and right now anyway, I don't see but one logical move, and that would be west to the PAC. OU might be a little more prone to a move to the SEC, but I don't think UT and OU will go their separate ways unless OU becomes convinced UT is NOT gonna make a move, and right now anyway, I think both schools would prefer to join the PAC, perhaps with OSU and Tech. I could see KU going to the B1G, WVU to the ACC as a fulltime member, and the rest of the conference could become the western division of the AAC, assuming no other landing spots for Big XII members.

 

[doc longhorn]

If the Big XII goes the expansion route, and assuming there is interest on Clemson's part, and assuming there is NO interest on FSU's part, I see the Big XII adding Clemson and Central Florida and being done with expansion. Randolph Duke said there are a lot of variables out there right now, and I agree, so Clemson making a move is not a sure thing. I don't see any other viable candidates for expansion.
I know UT's administrators have said they'd prefer to stay with the Big XII, and I kinda believe them. However, when everything shakes out, I think UT and OU making a move is gonna become an imperative, and right now anyway, I don't see but one logical move, and that would be west to the PAC. OU might be a little more prone to a move to the SEC, but I don't think UT and OU will go their separate ways unless OU becomes convinced UT is NOT gonna make a move, and right now anyway, I think both schools would prefer to join the PAC, perhaps with OSU and Tech. I could see KU going to the B1G, WVU to the ACC as a fulltime member, and the rest of the conference could become the western division of the AAC, assuming no other landing spots for Big XII members.

But, cool, why would they (they being OU and UT) be interested in the PAC, B1G or even the SEC? What is the advantage? Remember, you have ti look at it from the admin.'s viewpoint - not the fans. OU is making good money in the Big 12 and UT has a river of money coming in.

What is the motivation to leave this little paradise of lucre? As far as UT is concerned and IF a compelling reason arose to bolt, they could go anywhere and at anytime. Why not just sit, fat and happy?

Furthermore, would it be better to go to the PAC or would it be better to simply enhance the Big 12 with a couple of desirable teams - thus upgrading the conferences reputation and schedules?

You brought up Clemson. A good team, although I am pretty sure FSU is better and more wiling to consider the Big 12. The reasons they desired the Big12 before have not gone away and it would ease the geographical strain if Louisville joined as well.

I can see, from a fans viewpoint, that there are teams in the B1G and PAC that would be more enjoyable to watch than...Iowa State, Ku or KSU. But I honestly don't think the fans have a vote.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

But, cool, why would they (they being OU and UT) be interested in the PAC, B1G or even the SEC? What is the advantage? Remember, you have ti look at it from the admin.'s viewpoint - not the fans. OU is making good money in the Big 12 and UT has a river of money coming in.What is the motivation to leave this little paradise of lucre? As far as UT is concerned and IF a compelling reason arose to bolt, they could go anywhere and at anytime. Why not just sit, fat and happy?

Furthermore, would it be better to go to the PAC or would it be better to simply enhance the Big 12 with a couple of desirable teams - thus upgrading the conferences reputation and schedules?

You brought up Clemson. A good team, although I am pretty sure FSU is better and more wiling to consider the Big 12. The reasons they desired the Big12 before have not gone away and it would ease the geographical strain if Louisville joined as well.

I can see, from a fans viewpoint, that there are teams in the B1G and PAC that would be more enjoyable to watch than...Iowa State, Ku or KSU. But I honestly don't think the fans have a vote.

Exactly

UT has no motivation to leave for the PAC or ACC for significantly less money. We're the Big 12's lead dog in a convenient, well-balanced conference. We've got Notre Dame, Cal, USC, and Ohio State on future schedules. Bottom line - if UT wanted to be somewhere else, we'd already be there! UT admin has gone all-in with LHN and that ain't changin'. Our business model only fits in the Big 12 or as an independent.

http://texassports.com/sports/2013/7/27/FB_0727133417.aspx?path=football

FSU is more inclined to join the Big 12, IMO, than Clemson or any other ACC school. They value football first and we can offer them placement in the same division as UT and OU. Do you think that looks better to them than the ACC's Atlantic Division?

http://www.bcinterruption.com/acc-expansion-syracuse-pittsburgh-louisville-notre-dame/2013/2/14/3987122/acc-divisional-alignment-louisville-atlantic-division

ACC commish John Swofford has done little to boost their overall football cred and SOS. Notre Dame as a part-time member doesn't cut it. I'd venture to guess that FSU resents the Irish's preferential treatment. Only sticking point for the Noles right now is their former president, Eric Barron, signed the ACC's grant of rights with the ridiculous $50M buy-out. He's since left for Penn State.

All bets are off if Maryland wins a judgement against the ACC.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

Conferences don't "kick out" or "drop" schools. That has never happened and it never will. You can't just kick out a school because you don't like them or because they don't have perceived value in a certain sport.

Actually, the MAC just booted U-Mass. Of course, they were "encouraged" to join as members in all sports (inc basketball) and declined. The Minutemen valued their Atlantic-10 hoops schedule. Thanks, but no thanks.

http://msn.foxsports.com/college-football/story/mid-american-conference-mac-massachusetts-football-to-part-ways-after-2015-032614

 

[Capn Hook]

Link?
And 1 school from the Big East that isn't even a major school.

The Big 12 isn't going to "kick" anyone out nor will they threaten schools. Neither will the BIG, SEC, PAC, or ACC.

Link: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7656299/temple-football-play-big-east-2012-season

 

[doc longhorn]

Link?
And 1 school from the Big East that isn't even a major school.

The Big 12 isn't going to "kick" anyone out nor will they threaten schools. Neither will the BIG, SEC, PAC, or ACC.

I previously referred to a team in The Big East - forgetting that Louisville is joining the ACC.

I agree that, for the most part, teams are not directly kicked out of conferences. However, principle teams can bolt or re-organize a new conference - leaving out the undesirables. That has happened for sure - ala the SWC and the Big 8.

 

[Matt Cotcher]

Making the case for KU (and hoops)...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>A look at the NCAA Tournament payouts by conference over the last 5 years (via <a href="https://twitter.com/jonsol">@jonsol</a&gt <a href="http://t.co/oW1mVAUCZS">pic.twitter.com/oW1mVAUCZS</a></p>— darren rovell (@darrenrovell) <a href="

https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/statuses/449546259494608896">March 28, 2014</a></blockquote><script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Pancho Negro]

Link: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7656299/temple-football-play-big-east-2012-season

This isn't really valid as Temple was just "football only" in the Big East. Their entire athletic department wasn't in the Big East conference. Of course, if 1 sport is in your conference and they aren't pulling their weight then you might give them an ultimatum. But we are talking about an ENTIRE athletic department, not 1 sport. There's still no proof of a school and their entire athletic department being kicked out because they suck at certain sports.

 

[Pancho Negro]

I previously referred to a team in The Big East - forgetting that Louisville is joining the ACC.
I agree that, for the most part, teams are not directly kicked out of conferences. However, principle teams can bolt or re-organize a new conference - leaving out the undesirables. That has happened for sure - ala the SWC and the Big 8.

This is more likely--a reorganization into a "new conference" without some other schools. The problem is a.) getting the votes to join another conference, which UT would have no problem doing or B.) starting a new conference and asking certain schools to come along with us.

 

[Pancho Negro]

The bottom line is the Big 12 isn't going to "kick" member schools out. They have no reason to.

But I do believe the Big 12 jumped the gun in inviting both TCU and WVU. Horrible additions.

 

[huntermsn1]

The realistic scenario is adding BYU (brings positive revenues and geographically makes sense) and finding a travel partner for the mountaineers. Big 12 will need to poach the ACC for either Clemson or possibly G. Tech. I know this isn't the ideal situation for the horns but it makes the most sense for the conference.

 

[doc longhorn]

The realistic scenario is adding BYU (brings positive revenues and geographically makes sense) and finding a travel partner for the mountaineers. Big 12 will need to poach the ACC for either Clemson or possibly G. Tech. I know this isn't the ideal situation for the horns but it makes the most sense for the conference.

BYU is a definite candidate to make it for 12 teams. The University of Moscow would be more likely than GT. Pay attention to what McPhaul said about Louisville and what he didn't say about FSU. Just saying.

And, IMO, the ideal situation for UT is to sit right where they are.

All of this talk of expansion is academic anyway. At least until the Maryland issue is settled. And now, schools will have to determine how the ripple effect of the Northwestern debacle will affect them, as well.

 

[Embrey]

The bottom line is the Big 12 isn't going to "kick" member schools out. They have no reason to.
But I do believe the Big 12 jumped the gun in inviting both TCU and WVU. Horrible additions.

If the Big 12 had added FSU + another desirable, profitable athletic program instead of TCU & WV when the ags and Missouri left it would have made more sense. Texas fans will never know how us little Horned Frogs suffered when the world of big $ athletics left us behind. I know to Texas we are just a pest with zero upside. If you beat us you did what you should do. If we beat you then the sky is falling.