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[Captain Hookem]

The Republicans in North Carolina tried to gerrymander their districts to suppress the African American vote. It was so bad the North Carolina Supreme Court prevent them from drawing the maps the way they wanted because they said it was clear they were attacking the African American vote with surgical precision. 

You won't like this point, but gerrymandering doesn't have anything to do with voter suppression. It has everything to do with the party in power working districts to have more seats in their favor. Black people vote like 90-95% Dem so the attempt is made to get all of them into one district instead of spreading across two. 

Before you get to upset over this keep in mind that every state does this after every census, for both parties, and have done so since the very beginning. It's why it has a name, 'gerry-mandering', from some dude named Gerry who was most notorious for it a while back, because it's such a common practice. Just based on population alone there are a lot more white people targeted than black people with this. 

I worked in the Texas State Capitol from '92-'96 and watched this first hand as the state shifted from a purple state to a red state after the '90 census (those of us in the Sergeant at Arms office were seen and not heard). There was no talk of 'We don't want these people to vote'... It was all about grouping voters into districts. This didn't matter if you were black, hispanic, or a district of white people with a long history of voting for one party. It's just a numbers game, plain and simple. 

This is another one of those issues that seems racial but isn't... that's because race is simply a factor rolled into a larger strategy. If black people voted 50/50 they wouldn't be grouped in at all. So every 10 years the cycle is repeated... census, re-districting, court cases. 

Also, if you really want to make your brain hurt try to come up with your own fair system of re-districting. The first idea is understandable, 'Make everything squares.' But then one square has a lot more people than the other, so make 'irregular' squares. And that's when you realize the deep, deep rabbit hole that is grouping voters into voter districts. 

Black voter suppression happens, both historically and now. But gerrymandering isn't part of it. 

 

[hornsups]

If you are a US citizen you have the right to vote.  But you have to be able to prove it. 

Can I walk into share holder meeting and vote on proposals without having to prove I own any shares in the corporation?  No I cannot. 

ID is a must otherwise you start getting voter fraud.

All the other points about voting polls closing etc.  I completely agree with.

Why do you have to be able to provide it with an ID though? The most common form of ID used are driver’s license but African Americans are less likely to drive. They tend to live in urban communities with mass transportation which helps because they tend to be poorer. Or they had a license but had fines they couldn’t pay so they cannot get it renewed. We tend to not have concealed carry licenses or passport because we don’t need those often. So you see, it’s kinda easy to see that people can survive not having an ID. Also how can you say it’s a right but you need something to do it?? Voter fraud like in North Carolina where a white man running for Congress actually took the ballots from African Americans who were voting by mail to make sure he won?? Come on now, why do people want to make it hard for everyone to have their voice heard?? 

 

[DMAC]

Why do you have to be able to provide it with an ID though? The most common form of ID used are driver’s license but African Americans are less likely to drive. They tend to live in urban communities with mass transportation which helps because they tend to be poorer. Or they had a license but had fines they couldn’t pay so they cannot get it renewed. We tend to not have concealed carry licenses or passport because we don’t need those often. So you see, it’s kinda easy to see that people can survive not having an ID. Also how can you say it’s a right but you need something to do it?? Voter fraud like in North Carolina where a white man running for Congress actually took the ballots from African Americans who were voting by mail to make sure he won?? Come on now, why do people want to make it hard for everyone to have their voice heard?? 

Those are good points.  I can see that.  There has to be a way though. 

 

[Captain Hookem]

Why do you have to be able to provide it with an ID though? The most common form of ID used are driver’s license but African Americans are less likely to drive. They tend to live in urban communities with mass transportation which helps because they tend to be poorer. Or they had a license but had fines they couldn’t pay so they cannot get it renewed. We tend to not have concealed carry licenses or passport because we don’t need those often. So you see, it’s kinda easy to see that people can survive not having an ID. Also how can you say it’s a right but you need something to do it?? Voter fraud like in North Carolina where a white man running for Congress actually took the ballots from African Americans who were voting by mail to make sure he won?? Come on now, why do people want to make it hard for everyone to have their voice heard?? 

Most places don't require a driver's license. They simply require a valid picture ID along with your voter registration card. If you don't have your voter registration card then a driver's license is required as both picture ID and 2nd form of ID to check against the registered voter database. 

Back in the day places would even accept a Blockbuster card, so it's not like the bar was high for a picture ID. 

'Requiring something to do it' ensures that the right is preserved for those who have the right. 

 

[hornsups]

You won't like this point, but gerrymandering doesn't have anything to do with voter suppression. It has everything to do with the party in power working districts to have more seats in their favor. Black people vote like 90-95% Dem so the attempt is made to get all of them into one district instead of spreading across two. 

Before you get to upset over this keep in mind that every state does this after every census, for both parties, and have done so since the very beginning. It's why it has a name, 'gerry-mandering', from some dude named Gerry who was most notorious for it a while back, because it's such a common practice. Just based on population alone there are a lot more white people targeted than black people with this. 

I worked in the Texas State Capitol from '92-'96 and watched this first hand as the state shifted from a purple state to a red state after the '90 census (those of us in the Sergeant at Arms office were seen and not heard). There was no talk of 'We don't want these people to vote'... It was all about grouping voters into districts. This didn't matter if you were black, hispanic, or a district of white people with a long history of voting for one party. It's just a numbers game, plain and simple. 

This is another one of those issues that seems racial but isn't... that's because race is simply a factor rolled into a larger strategy. If black people voted 50/50 they wouldn't be grouped in at all. So every 10 years the cycle is repeated... census, re-districting, court cases. 

Also, if you really want to make your brain hurt try to come up with your own fair system of re-districting. The first idea is understandable, 'Make everything squares.' But then one square has a lot more people than the other. And that's when you realize the deep, deep rabbit hole that is grouping voters into voter districts. 

Black voter suppression happens, both historically and now. But gerrymandering isn't part of it. 

Doesn’t make it right who does it. Gerrymandering does suppress votes. If you draw a map to make African Americans or whites have 1 less district, you take away the fundamental job of voting. They get 1 less representative in Congress so that’s one less person voting with their interest in mind. 

 

[Captain Hookem]

Doesn’t make it right who does it. Gerrymandering does suppress votes. If you draw a map to make African Americans or whites have 1 less district, you take away the fundamental job of voting. They get 1 less representative in Congress so that’s one less person voting with their interest in mind. 

Not true... it's a zero sum game. Every voter ends up in a district, and their vote still counts as much as the voter in the next district. 

 

[hornsups]

Most places don't require a driver's license. They simply require a valid picture ID along with your voter registration card. If you don't have your voter registration card then a driver's license is required as both picture ID and 2nd form of ID to check against the registered voter database. 

Back in the day places would even accept a Blockbuster card, so it's not like the bar was high for a picture ID. 

'Requiring something to do it' ensures that the right is preserved for those who have the right. 

Ok maybe a blockbuster card worked in the past but go look at what’s need in Texas. I don’t see a simply ones. Basically the ones I mentioned. That last paragraph is like the Euthyphro dilemma. I won’t even touch that one. 

 

[drgilbert]

Not true SHA. Racism in Amercia encompasses more than just hatred of another's skin color although that is definitely part of it. While you personally don't think you're better than another person based solely on skin color, and that's awesome, it doesn't change the fact that there are systems and power structures currently in place that oppress minorities. I honestly wish racism were as simple as "I don't like you cuz you're black". And I don't have my own secret definition of racism.  As a matter of fact I posted the definition of racism and tried to explain it. The issues I mention have been echoed by black people for centuries. I could not sit here with a straight face and claim no progress has been made for blacks and minorities since the abolishing of slavery. Hell you mentioned some of them. And just because economic factors haven't always been applicable doesn't mean that they aren't now. Have you heard of redlining? 

I also posted at least two definitions of racism that proved any color could be racist but you just ignored it and just gave your definition. So apparently definitions don’t mean a darn thing here. 

 

[drgilbert]

Here’s what you need for Texas 

https://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/forms/id/poster-11x17-aw-voter.pdf

 

[Captain Hookem]

Ok maybe a blockbuster card worked in the past but go look at what’s need in Texas. I don’t see a simply ones. Basically the ones I mentioned. That last paragraph is like the Euthyphro dilemma. I won’t even touch that one. 

That's a good point... This is honestly an area I don't want to go suggesting stuff for fear of sounding as if I'm stereotyping. 

What would you recommend as a valid method for 2 factor identification for those in the black community? In other places they use ID cards distributed by the city, in lieu of having a driver's license. It still requires a trip to the city courthouse, but is an option. This is an area where some insight can help find a good solution.  

 

[drgilbert]

Everyone should be able to get something on the list. If not then they just don’t care enough 

 

[hornsups]

Not true... it's a zero sum game. Every voter ends up in a district, and their vote still counts as much as the voter in the next district. 

But it’s not a zero sum game. Come on man, you can’t believe that. Our system is too wacky for that. If we lived in a zero sum game government were every vote counted no matter where it was casted... your vote for Trump in California would be equal to the person voting for Biden. But it’s not. We like to believe it does but it just doesn’t. Same with any race having 1 less person representing them mattering. The House can swing based on that 1 less district here and there. We all vote, you gerrymandered it to make 2 African American districts into one & give Republicans an extra district. You’ve intentionally made my vote count less because you took votes in a district that was vote Democratic, added them to a district that was already gonna vote the same & then you created a Republican district. It’s diluted my vote. 

 

[Captain Hookem]

Everyone should be able to get something on the list. If not then they just don’t care enough 

Normally people don't care enough until election day comes around. Then they realize they can't get anything on the list they don't already have. If they cared enough 6 weeks out they'd probably make the effort. 

 

[DBut82]

I also posted at least two definitions of racism that proved any color could be racist but you just ignored it and just gave your definition. So apparently definitions don’t mean a darn thing here. 

I replied to that to say that racism encompasses all parts of the definition. Not just the 1st.or the last. C'mon keep it ?. My point being simply that yes discrimination based on skin color is not the end all be all of racism. It is definitely is apart of it. And the most easily identifiable. Hope that clears it up

 

[hornsups]

Everyone should be able to get something on the list. If not then they just don’t care enough 

Not true man, if you haven’t serviced can’t get a military ID. No gun, no concealed carry. I’ve already talked about drivers licenses. Passport?? I didn’t get a passport until this year. No one in my family has a passport. Not something many African Americans need. You can think it’s something everyone should be able to get but again, that’s your opinion. 

 

[drgilbert]

Here’s the laws for New York 

https://www.voteriders.org/ufaqs/new-york-voter-id-information/

if you really want to vote you will find a way. Everything else is an excuse 

 

[hornsups]

Normally people don't care enough until election day comes around. Then they realize they can't get anything on the list they don't already have. If they cared enough 6 weeks out they'd probably make the effort. 

If they cared enough?? Maybe they have to work. Maybe they are worried about how they will pay rent and feed their family. Maybe they don’t have access to transports to get there. Maybe there’s a fine they cannot pay to get that ID. Maybe they have an expired ID and cannot get a new one. It’s not about if they care or not. 

 

[Captain Hookem]

But it’s not a zero sum game. Come on man, you can’t believe that. Our system is too wacky for that. If we lived in a zero sum game government were every vote counted no matter where it was casted... your vote for Trump in California would be equal to the person voting for Biden. But it’s not. We like to believe it does but it just doesn’t. Same with any race having 1 less person representing them mattering. The House can swing based on that 1 less district here and there. We all vote, you gerrymandered it to make 2 African American districts into one & give Republicans an extra district. You’ve intentionally made my vote count less because you took votes in a district that was vote Democratic, added them to a district that was already gonna vote the same & then you created a Republican district. It’s diluted my vote. 

You are correct... It's not a zero sum game for parties, or candidates, or ethnic groups, or social movements, etc.

But it's not just a racial unfairness cause you can take this sententence, "We all vote, you gerrymandered it to make 2 <GROUP> districts into one & give <PARTY> an extra district." And replace GROUP with any group and PARTY with any party. 

I didn't say it was fair. In fact it's far more correct to say it's "equally unfair". 

The challenge remains... create a better system for voter districts, and I'll support it. It's something fought over for 220 years, so I don't see a better solution anytime soon. 

 

[DBut82]

@drgilbert, honest question: do you believe in general that black people in America are in the positions some are in due to simply not caring? Or that we should "pick ourselves up by our bootstraps"? I'm asking from a place of understanding. If you would rather dm me that's fine. I honestly respect your opinions and truly trying to gain an understanding. 

 

[drgilbert]

Not true man, if you haven’t serviced can’t get a military ID. No gun, no concealed carry. I’ve already talked about drivers licenses. Passport?? I didn’t get a passport until this year. No one in my family has a passport. Not something many African Americans need. You can think it’s something everyone should be able to get but again, that’s your opinion. 

How about the dark blue part. It talks about check and utility bills